NoPC Forums  

Go Back   NoPC Forums > Religion & Philosophy > Crusades

Crusades Its been going on for thousands of years, so why stop? Fight that religious and cultural battle right here at Crusades.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-29-2008, 01:54 PM
SpaceCadet's Avatar
SpaceCadet SpaceCadet is offline
100% Patriot
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,170
SpaceCadet is on a distinguished road
Default The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Sir Arthur Eddington, an English astronomer, said that the universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.

I'm currently reading an older book titled "The Conscious Universe", and its theme ties in nicely with that of Paul Davies' new book "The Cosmic Jackpot". Both of them discuss the role of conscious observers in determining what reality is. Sounds strange, huh?

Like most "rational" scientifically-minded individuals, I've always wanted to be able to understand the fundamentals about how the universe works. I've also always believed that this was possible because physical phenomena can be described and explained through mathematics, a fact that is very convenient. Most of us (scientists) have regarded the existence of life, even intelligent life, as a mere by-product of conditions that exist within the universe the way it is, and completely unimportant to an explanation of physical reality. Even when the development of quantum theory began to raise doubts about that, we mostly chose to hope that further development of the theory would set things straight. But over time, things have moved in the opposite direction.

Through most of the history of science, our common-sense notions of how things work was a good guide. We could make observations, develop theory to explain those observations, use the theory to make further predictions about what else should happen in certain circumstances, and verify those predictions - and the theory - by doing more experiments. The predictions of those theories often extended our picture of reality, but usually did not go too much against our common-sense notions of how things work, and they definitely were within our ability to understand things at an intuitive level.

Now, we are finally beginning to accept that reality is truly stranger than we can imagine, and that it cannot be visualized, but only described mathematically.

The advent of relativity theory was the first move away from a physical reality that we could understand on an intuitive level, and this is one of the main reasons it represented such a huge step. An absolute speed limit? A material object would shrink in length toward zero, but gain in mass toward infinity as the speed of light was approached? But only as seen by a stationary observer? Space and time are not absolute? 4-dimensional curved "space-time"?

If relativity, special and general, damaged our ability to intuitively understand the universe, then quantum theory completely shattered it. Now we live in a universe where all of reality is seemingly somehow tied together, at some fundamental level that we cannot even imagine, so that the mere act of observing, or measurement, at one point in the universe can have effects at some other point clear on the other side of the universe, simultaneously with no delay - far beyond where any kind of message could actually be transmitted between the two points. More recent thinking has it that this may be such a fundamental part of reality that we cannot even really study it, because the effects of trying to study it will get in the way of studying it. Even more strange is the notion that we, as conscious beings, may actually have a role in creating the reality that we experience.

This is all beginning to sound suspiciously like the Buddhists may have had it basically correct all along, and the idea that they may have beat the scientific community to it chagrins me greatly.

With all of this background, the point I started out wanting to make is this: You can believe that there is a God who actually gives a crap who you sleep with, or who is against two homosexuals being with each other - regardless of whether you choose to call it marriage or a civil union. You can believe that, like Santa, He knows if you are sleeping or awake, and whether you've been bad or good. You can wrap yourself in all of the complex ancient rituals of a particular religion, so that you feel protected and a member of the club in good standing. But for me, with the more glimpses I get into actual reality, all of that BS is revealed as superficial nonsense.

None of this is to say that there is definitely no God, in some form. These recent developments in our understanding may even end up moving some scientists - and others - to become believers in a deity. But it is very different from what most people would likely conceive of, and far transcends the tenets of most any established religion. The various religions, of course, were established to maintain control over people - and are fallacious at their core because they worship a person, Jesus, Mohammed, or whoever the case may be, rather than taking to heart what that teacher was trying to teach.

Ok, well I've been wanting to write something like this for some time, and felt compelled to do so by my recent reading. Sound intriguing? Hopefully, I've been able to communicate at least a little of the intrigue via this brief description. Is it scary? I'm sorry if I scared or offended anyone, but I can't let that possibility prevent me from discussing the truth. If it sounds intriguing, I hope you'll check out these books, and I'm sure there are probably others available as well.

Last edited by SpaceCadet; 12-29-2008 at 02:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-29-2008, 02:25 PM
Lazarus's Avatar
Lazarus Lazarus is offline
Global Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Etched firmly betwixt rock & hard place
Posts: 40,197
Blog Entries: 4
Lazarus is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Islam is not about worshipping Mohammad, and Christianity is not about worshipping Jesus apart from the Father and the Holy Spirit (but in unity).

I am glad you are finally waking up to the fact that reality is mysterious, and that God is revealed in many ways.

Jesus, for example, taught that we Christians were not supposed to judge people or events superficially, putting form over substance, but rather seek the truth with an open mind much as a child's.

The universe is indeed filled with wonders. I believe I have tried to explain it to you before as that analogy of the sparrow that knows not higher mathematics, the calculus or aerodynamics yet manages still to fly--all such things being completely beyond its ability to comprehend, and that likewise, there are things that we humans for all our egos and pride cannot possibly understand, but whether the line is drawn here or there, like a consciousness caught in a black hole, we cannot ever comprehend what might exist beyond our event horizon. We can speculate but can never know.

Science is but one path to the truth and it is not always a straight line.
__________________
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This principle is, contempt prior to examination."
- Rev Wm H Poole (1879)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-29-2008, 02:42 PM
SpaceCadet's Avatar
SpaceCadet SpaceCadet is offline
100% Patriot
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,170
SpaceCadet is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
Islam is not about worshipping Mohammad, and Christianity is not about worshipping Jesus apart from the Father and the Holy Spirit (but in unity).
You're right, of course, but there seem to be a lot of "Christians" and "Muslims" who don't get that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
I am glad you are finally waking up to the fact that reality is mysterious, and that God is revealed in many ways.

Jesus, for example, taught that we Christians were not supposed to judge people or events superficially, putting form over substance, but rather seek the truth with an open mind much as a child's.

The universe is indeed filled with wonders. I believe I have tried to explain it to you before as that analogy of the sparrow that knows not higher mathematics, the calculus or aerodynamics yet manages still to fly--all such things being completely beyond its ability to comprehend, and that likewise, there are things that we humans for all our egos and pride cannot possibly understand, but whether the line is drawn here or there, like a consciousness caught in a black hole, we cannot ever comprehend what might exist beyond our event horizon. We can speculate but can never know.

Science is but one path to the truth and it is not always a straight line.
This is all great, and I have no substantive quarrel with it. But I'm not ready to proceed based solely on faith. Without the science as a guide, I could see that it would be very difficult to not take a wrong turn, as I think many so-called "religious" people have throughout history.

I also think that even if science ends up confirming the basic truths behind the religions, we will in the end find out much more about physical reality using science than we would by studying ancient religious texts. But we might come to know the God behind physical reality best by studying the ancient writings.

I don't completely discount the possibility that science and spirituality may end up coexisting and even supporting one another as two different ways of "knowing". Of course, the young-Earth Creationists and some others might not see it that way, but my bias is still that wherever science and religious-based ideas conflict, it is more likely the religion that is wrong, because I can show mathematically why the science is right - although it may not yet be the entire picture.

Last edited by SpaceCadet; 12-29-2008 at 03:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-29-2008, 03:56 PM
FREEBIRD FREEBIRD is offline
...........
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: America
Posts: 5,119
FREEBIRD is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Quote:
These recent developments in our understanding may even end up moving some scientists - and others - to become believers in a deity. But it is very different from what most people would likely conceive of, and far transcends the tenets of most any established religion. The various religions, of course, were established to maintain control over people - and are fallacious at their core because they worship a person, Jesus, Mohammed, or whoever the case may be, rather than taking to heart what that teacher was trying to teach.
I don't think it far transcends, it meets expectations....glad you are seeing the light so to speak.

I agree some religions have used their beliefs to control the masses. but you need to understand Christianity wasn't always the masses, far from it in fact.

Like Laz, I do not worship Jesus....I worship his Creator...my Creator....the Creator of the universe that is sooooo complex no scientist will ever fully comprehend it. they will try, relentlessly....but ultimately, there are things NO person can explain or make sense of...that is because they are not meant for you to understand.....it is a ploy to divert your attention from what the world here needs from our scientists. space exploration is great, don't get me wrong......but keep your eye on the prize
__________________




Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:15 PM
SpaceCadet's Avatar
SpaceCadet SpaceCadet is offline
100% Patriot
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,170
SpaceCadet is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEBIRD View Post
I don't think it far transcends, it meets expectations....glad you are seeing the light so to speak.

I agree some religions have used their beliefs to control the masses. but you need to understand Christianity wasn't always the masses, far from it in fact.

Like Laz, I do not worship Jesus....I worship his Creator...my Creator....the Creator of the universe that is sooooo complex no scientist will ever fully comprehend it. they will try, relentlessly....but ultimately, there are things NO person can explain or make sense of...that is because they are not meant for you to understand.....it is a ploy to divert your attention from what the world here needs from our scientists. space exploration is great, don't get me wrong......but keep your eye on the prize
Well, I guess it depends on what aspects of the religion you are talking about. I guess I was referring to some of the more superficial aspects of specific religions, but even to some aspects that are deeply held by adherents to a particular faith and in fact form the core of those faiths. One example of the latter would be Jesus being resurrected.

But it sounds like both you and Laz are more along the lines of what I would term as "true Christians". But you start losing me a little bit when you start hypothesizing a "ploy" (a ploy by whom?) or that I was "meant" to do something or the other. My prize is continuing to understand physical reality, at least until a complete dead end is reached after which I have no alternative but to give up on making any further progress along that line of inquiry.

You also still seem to imply that our world has some favored status within the vastness of the universe.

What if we had followed your advice during, say, the 1500s and given up on scientific inquiry because we weren't "meant" to understand? We would have missed out on almost everything we now know about the universe. We might feel like we knew God alright, and all that jazz, but we would be living in a state of intellectual ignorance, restricted by religious ideas from knowledge.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:29 PM
THE Gypsy's Avatar
THE Gypsy THE Gypsy is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 35,767
THE Gypsy has much to be proud ofTHE Gypsy has much to be proud ofTHE Gypsy has much to be proud ofTHE Gypsy has much to be proud ofTHE Gypsy has much to be proud ofTHE Gypsy has much to be proud ofTHE Gypsy has much to be proud ofTHE Gypsy has much to be proud of
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Religion is a man made hoax.
__________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. Benjamin Franklin

Ass-kissing, Pied piper, messiah worshiping, Lemming leading bunch of toads. THE Gypsy
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:35 PM
SpaceCadet's Avatar
SpaceCadet SpaceCadet is offline
100% Patriot
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,170
SpaceCadet is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE Gypsy View Post
Religion is a man made hoax.
Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:39 PM
PlainFedUp's Avatar
PlainFedUp PlainFedUp is offline
Lives at NoPC
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 5,554
PlainFedUp is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

All Islam is interested in is conquest.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:48 PM
SpaceCadet's Avatar
SpaceCadet SpaceCadet is offline
100% Patriot
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,170
SpaceCadet is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlainFedUp View Post
All Islam is interested in is conquest.
That, of course, has nothing to do with this thread.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-29-2008, 05:28 PM
Sancho Sancho is offline
Lives at NoPC
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,240
Sancho is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: The Universe Is Stranger Than You Can Imagine

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceCadet View Post
We might feel like we knew God alright, and all that jazz, .
I don't like jazz.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.