Goodbye, Cruel World

[Satan]

Thanks to kathleen for notifying me in time to bring the plants into the house.


It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine
~ R.E.M.

Hurricanes tearing the southeastern U.S. off the map yesterday, California crumbling into the ocean today, and damned if we ain't gonna be hit by a moutain falling out of the sky tomorrow.

I'd just like to take this last opportunity to express my love and gratitude to...


(What? They've said this kinda shit before? Oh.)


Nevermind. Let's continue, shall we?

How do you think the world is going to end?

(This is the SCIENCE forum, please don't tell me about Jesus coming back. [Edit: Oh, what the hell. Knock yourself out, if you must.])


Personally? I think it's going to be as simple as some dumbass pushing the wrong button. Nature ain't gonna have to exterminate us. The technology that we're creating today is going to be beyond our faculties to control tomorrow (some of it already is), and one of these days, some idiot's greed or vanity is going to get the best of all of us.

[WCP]

Virus.

[kathleen]

The most plausible scientific explanation of how the world ends?

Hmmmmm.................that would be the sun going nova which should happen in a few billion years or so. Though, there are some people who say that our sun isn't the type of star to go nova, that instead it will expand, swallow anything in it's path including earth and then collapse as it's gases burn out.

Either way we're toast. ;)

Then there's the threat of asteroid strikes - a real threat indeed. Again, not much we can do about that. There's also plague, epidemics, pandemics, etc - a threat still around despite our advances in medicine and public health. There are those who insist that viruses will ultimately rule the world. From what I know, they have good reason to think this way.

What do you mean by the "end of the world" anyway? The destruction of the planet or the collapse of human civilization or the extinction of the human species or what?

Any good survivalist prepares for all of the above. ;D

[Satan]

What do you mean by the "end of the world" anyway? The destruction of the planet or the collapse of human civilization or the extinction of the human species or what?

Guess I should have been more specific about that, huh? :)

As far as my 'wrong button' theory goes, I suppose it could mean any (or all) of the above (I was thinking more along the lines of extinction when I posted it, though). Let's just leave it open to all ideas.

...as if we might stay on topic anyway. ::) ;D

[Satan]

Virus.


Oh, come on. You're not playing right. Give us a good doomsday scenario. Hell, the world's gonna end tomorrow, nobody's gonna know if you're wrong. ;D

[kathleen]

Guess I should have been more specific about that, huh? :)

Not very many people think about it anyway.

I'm fascinated by end of the world scenarios. They are some of my favorite sci-fi stories and/or movies. The ones that are based on the few survivors struggling to survive after the disaster are the best. Their methods will vary depending on the type of disaster, of course, but there are some things that will remain the same.

The few survivors will spend alot of time looking for other survivors, naturally. The psychological need for the companionship of our own kind is an innate trait. Plus the fact that individuals of a group have a better chance of survival than an individual on his own is going to be significant in what people do.

These new, fledgling communities won't be without conflict. Most people will still be in shock, the alphas will rise to the positions of leadership (undoubtably fighting among themselves), mistakes will be made. It really comes down to luck more than anything else. If the post-apocalypse world is still habitable, if there are enough survivors to make a functional society (and breeding population), if there are strong leaders to lead the group past the pitfalls and dangers of the new environment................humanity should be able to continue.

Lots of ifs though. ;D

[WCP]

Oh, come on. You're not playing right. Give us a good doomsday scenario. Hell, the world's gonna end tomorrow, nobody's gonna know if you're wrong. ;D


Asteroid.

[WCP]

Asteroid.


But the viruses will survive while we do not. 8)

[kathleen]

But the viruses will survive while we do not. 8)


You're in my head again. ::)

[Satan]

I'm fascinated by end of the world scenarios. They are some of my favorite sci-fi stories and/or movies. The ones that are based on the few survivors struggling to survive after the disaster are the best.

I love those too. That's why I started this when I saw your post in the Earthquake thread. :)

[Satan]

OK, I'll bite...

HOW do viruses survive when we don't? They have to have a host, don't they?


(Yes, I'm in way over my head here...)

[WCP]

OK, I'll bite...

HOW do viruses survive when we don't? They have to have a host, don't they?


(Yes, I'm in way over my head here...)


Dormant. They will mutate to adapt to another host, perhaps a chemical or a mineral, perhaps even a low form of life like an amoeba or even particulates in the air, perhaps other forms of virus.

[kathleen]

OK, I'll bite...

HOW do viruses survive when we don't? They have to have a host, don't they?

But not necessarily a human host. :)

They can "invade" plants, animals, even other microorganisms like bacteria.

[WCP]

OK, I'll bite...

HOW do viruses survive when we don't? They have to have a host, don't they?


(Yes, I'm in way over my head here...)


Categories of hosts found in virus taxa:

Algae - non-vascular plants, with chlorophyll
Archaea
Bacteria - unicellular plant lacking chlorophyll and without a nucleus
Fungi - parasitic or saprophytic plants, lacking chlorophyll
Invertebrates - animals without backbones: worms and insects
Mycoplasma - non-motile organisms, without cell walls, between bacteria and viruses
Plants - multicellular, vascular, chlorophyll containing organisms
Protozoa - single cell motile water-borne organisms
Spiroplasma - slender spiral bacteria, often pathogenic
Vertebrates - animals with spines

Viral Hosts (http://www.tulane.edu/~dmsander/Big_Virology/BVHostList.html)

[WCP]

But not necessarily a human host. :)

They can "invade" plants, animals, even other microorganisms like bacteria.


Exactly. They call it "jumping species."

[sodaknomad]

Oh, come on. You're not playing right. Give us a good doomsday scenario. Hell, the world's gonna end tomorrow, nobody's gonna know if you're wrong. ;D


HITLERY! is gonna be "president." :P

[kathleen]

I love those too. That's why I started this when I saw your post in the Earthquake thread. :)


Come to think about it - a post-apocalypse story wouldn't be very interesting without human survivors, would it? ;D

[WCP]

Microbes are single-celled organisms that can perform the basic functions of life — metabolism, reproduction, and adaptation.

Except viruses. Viruses can’t metabolize nutrients, produce and excrete wastes, move around on their own, or even reproduce unless they are inside another organism’s cells.

They aren’t even cells.

Yet viruses have played key roles in shaping the history of life on our planet by shuffling and redistributing genes in and among organisms and by causing diseases in animals and plants. Viruses have been the culprits in many human diseases, including smallpox, flu, AIDS, certain types of cancer, and the ever-present common cold.

Where They’re Found
Viruses can infect virtually all types of cells: bacteria, fungi, protozoa, plants, animals, and human.

True parasites, viruses are basically little more than molecular syringes moving genetic information from one cell to another.

Some viruses enter a host and leave virtually unnoticed. Others cause disease and destroy the host.


Viruses come in many shapes. Left, an illustration of the influenza virus. Right, an illustration of Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV). Courtesy of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), National Institutes of Health.


Viruses are the simplest and tiniest of microbes; they can be as much as 10,000 times smaller than bacteria. Viruses consist of a small collection of genetic material (DNA or RNA) encased in a protective protein coat called a capsid. (Retroviruses are among the infectious particles that use RNA as their hereditary material. Probably the most famous retrovirus is human immunodeficiency virus, the cause of AIDS.) In some viruses, the capsid is covered by a viral envelope made of proteins, lipids and carbohydrates. The envelopes may be studded by spikes made of carbohydrates and proteins that help the virus particles attach to host cells. Outside of a host, viruses are inert, just mere microbial particles drifting aimlessly.

Contact
When viruses come into contact with host cells, they trigger the cells to engulf them, or fuse themselves to the cell membrane so they can release their DNA into the cell.

Once inside a host cell, viruses take over its machinery to reproduce. Viruses override the host cell’s normal functioning with their own set of instructions that shut down production of host proteins and direct the cell to produce viral proteins to make new virus particles.

Some viruses insert their genetic material into the host cell’s DNA, where they begin directing the copying of their genes or simply lie dormant for years or a lifetime. Either way, the host cell does all the actual work: the viruses simply provide the instructions.

Viruses may be able to infect and reproduce in more than one kind of animal, but the same virus can cause different reactions in different hosts.

http://www.microbeworld.org/htm/aboutmicro/microbes/types/virus.htm

Conclusion: This is why I believe cancer is a virus.

[kathleen]

Exactly. They call it "jumping species."


They aren't even considered "alive". They are parasites.

Yet the "most successful" organism on earth. Weird. ;D

[Satan]

Come to think about it - a post-apocalypse story wouldn't be very interesting without human survivors, would it? ;D


Day 1: Wind blows. No humans in sight.
Day 2: More wind. Still no humans.
Day 3: Rain...and wind.
Day 4: Oh, fuck this.

[WCP]

They aren't even considered "alive". They are parasites.

Yet the "most successful" organism on earth. Weird. ;D


They aren't even parasitic. They are not living off of the host. They are simply changing the DNA of that particular cell. They don't eat, they don't cause waste. They only produce.

[kathleen]

Day 1: Wind blows. No humans in sight.
Day 2: More wind. Still no humans.
Day 3: Rain...and wind.
Day 4: Oh, fuck this.


Exactly. ;D

Though we can throw some apes goofing around a monolith into that picture. Then have one pick up a big stick and hit another one on the head with it.

There - now we have some conflict. :D

[wendy]

OK, I'll bite...

HOW do viruses survive when we don't? They have to have a host, don't they?


(Yes, I'm in way over my head here...)


Cockroaches. Nothing kills those bastards.

[truelies]

This is one of the more plausible reasons people might one day, any day run into the streets of east coast cities screaming 'Oh SHIT we're gonna DIE!!!!!!!'

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/exitmundi.htm

It all starts with a faint rumbling of the earth, thousands of miles away. Near the African shore, the volcanic island of La Palma will rumble with seismic activity, announcing yet another eruption of the Cumbre Vieja volcano on the southern half of the island. But this time, the unstable western flank of the volcano doesn't hold. A huge chunk of the island simply breaks off and drops into the Atlantic Ocean. Plunge! No; PLUNGE!

[truelies]

This one is at least debatable-

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/exitmundi.htm

Hubbel Oil Peak

[wendy]

How many times are you going to post that?

Having a senior moment? ;D

[truelies]

I CORRECTED my error. It took me a moment to realise that the LINK was only to the homepage.l

[ponygurl]

I'm with kath and Bn.. virus.. or possibly a bacteria that we cannot beat.. we are well on the way to that one now.

[Satan]

This is one of the more plausible reasons people might one day, any day run into the streets of east coast cities screaming 'Oh SHIT we're gonna DIE!!!!!!!'

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/exitmundi.htm

It all starts with a faint rumbling of the earth, thousands of miles away. Near the African shore, the volcanic island of La Palma will rumble with seismic activity, announcing yet another eruption of the Cumbre Vieja volcano on the southern half of the island. But this time, the unstable western flank of the volcano doesn't hold. A huge chunk of the island simply breaks off and drops into the Atlantic Ocean. Plunge! No; PLUNGE!




That is a cool website. 8)


Keeping the nightmare alive... ;D

Oh, several hundreds of years may pass before the Super Wave rolls in. But on the other hand, it could happen next month as well.

[Persephone]

I probably wouldn't have given that test today if I'd know the world was going to end tomorrow.

[Satan]

Hey, here's my 'pushing the wrong button' theory. I knew somebody had to be trying to do it.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/strange.htm


I love the quote, too:

As the Russian theorist Lev Landau once put it: `Cosmologists are often wrong, but never in doubt.' ;D

[ponygurl]

I probably wouldn't have given that test today if I'd know the world was going to end tomorrow.

;D

[Tiger]

I think all of the scenarios presented are interesting. As far as a total annihilation - I would go with Kath's nova, but I think 'lesser' events could cause an almost-wipe-out.

Many historians think there was a more intelligent race of folks alive = before the ones we have documented as evidenced by the writing of those, like Plato, who suggested an Atlantis, Lemuria scenario. Ancient writings allude to maybe even TWO different races of humanoid beings. Teh Bible speaks of the Nephillim - as being distinctly different also.

Barring the destruction of the planet - human beings will continue - maybe not right away - but it time, and maybe not appearing exactly as we do now.

The most likely natural disaster, that could cause human life to be greatly reduced is a polar shift, or a shift of the tectonic plates covering the earth.

Some scientists think that the global warming will have an effect such as that. Odds are - it's happened before - so why not again?

Petrified Mammoths have been found flash-frozen - something that a tectonic shift could accomplish - but the interesting thing is that in the mouth of one was vegetation that grew in a warm clime.

An asteriod, as BN said, could also accomplish that.

I think the "push the button" scenario is a possibility - but that it would not wipe out as many as we sometimes think. It could take out a good chunk, however.

But even if all human life is exteriminated - unlikely except in the case of a massive asteroid, or the predicted nova. Small organisisms would survive, maybe viruses, sure, but other things too, perhaps reptillian, or some other species, and over the next few million years they would adapt (they would have to) and in doing so, begin, once again, the process towards intellectual beings..

The "life force" that runs through us (IMHO) runs through everything and we, as a part of that force, individually, collectively, or at random, would continue to incarnate in any creature that existed - and eventually there would be intelligent life, once again, on this planet.

Just my two cents. :)

[truelies]

......................Petrified Mammoths have been found flash-frozen - something that a tectonic shift could accomplish - but the interesting thing is that in the mouth of one was vegetation that grew in a warm clime.................................



This is one that has always puzzled me- how even remotely plausibly could such a huge carcass be quick frozen and apparently from a standing start of local mid-summer judging as you say from the contents of the last meal? Worlds in Colllison gives one explanation for that and some other currently unexpanables but i can't quite buy the idea of Vensus as a comet.

[LanceALott]

The most likely end will be some retarded Republica President who decideds to wipe out all Muslims with nukes.

Carl Sagan, a real scientist, did the research that told the world what will happen if only 100 nukes are ever detonated in some war.

It is called NUCLEAR WINTER, but Dubya would call it Nuculur winter, and laugh it away becase it comes from science, NOT FROM HIS BIBLE.

In such a nuclear winter, a dust and smoke could will go up all around Earth which will effectively block the sun and drop the surface temperature to 50 below zero for at least fifteen years; AND ALL LIFE AS WE KNOW IT WOULD DIE.

Bush, and all Christians seem to think they are God, and can just over rule all science they do not like.

[Satan]

This is the kind of shit that gives me the creeps:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/graygoo.htm

Nanotechnology gone berserk - in 72 hours.

This is exactly what I meant by 'technology beyond our faculties to control'. All for the sake of proving that we [/i]can[/i] make these little monsters line up and spell out 'IBM'. ::)

And -- I know I'm milking the hell out of this website, but bear with me for one more -- this is the most thought-provoking page that I've found on the whole site:

Welcome to the outskirts of reality

http://www.xs4all.nl/~mke/Dreamsend.htm

Because it suggests circumstantial evidence of the existence of <gasp!> GOD. :o

Science admittedly not being one of my strong suits, I've never really stopped to think about the 'fact' (so it would appear) that all of the physical constants and initial conditions necessary to produce the Universe as we know it are exactly the correct value. If the structure of the fundamental building blocks of matter were a hair off in any direction, no thing would ever have even existed, much less have 'formed itself' into intelligent life. If that's all a coincidence, that's one hell of a coincidence.

But abstract thought being a pleasant diversion, I've often given thought to the concept that what we consider 'reality' isn't really 'real'. The first time I remember thinking about it was when I got my first aquarium. I 'fixed' the Ph balance and water temperature, I supplied the food, I made the conditions in that environment perfect to sustain life. To those fish, I WAS GOD. For all I know, we're 'playthings' in God's own terrarium. But I guess that in itself would involve one hell of a coincidence as well, eh?

BTW - Try the staring-in-the-mirror and saying-your-name experiments, and you'll have some idea of the 'aura' that I get just before (and the dissociation from 'reality' that I feel the moment I come out of) an epileptic seizure. ;)

"Red is gray, and yellow white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion."



OK, you science geeks, have at me. ;D

[Satan]

The most likely end will be some retarded Republica President who decideds to wipe out all Muslims with nukes.

Carl Sagan, a real scientist, did the research that told the world what will happen if only 100 nukes are ever detonated in some war.

It is called NUCLEAR WINTER, but Dubya would call it Nuculur winter, and laugh it away becase it comes from science, NOT FROM HIS BIBLE.

In such a nuclear winter, a dust and smoke could will go up all around Earth which will effectively block the sun and drop the surface temperature to 50 below zero for at least fifteen years; AND ALL LIFE AS WE KNOW IT WOULD DIE.

Bush, and all Christians seem to think they are God, and can just over rule all science they do not like.


And I worried about folks dragging Jesus into this. ::)

Your OBLIGATORY OUTBURST OF POLITICAL HYSTERIA is duly noted, dickweed. You've convinced us all to vote for Kerry. Happy now? Good. Run along and play somewhere else. The grownups are trying to have a normal conversation, like civilized people do.

[Tiger]

Welcome to the "its not real-club"

Lots of us here before you. :)

Everything we see with our eyes has the value that we give it - but in, and of, itself, it does not have that value.

When we think that we 'go on' or exist outside the body - we will usually think that we will be much like ourselves, minus a shell that eats and craps and does other carnal things. But, that shell, once gone would necessarily take with it other perks, like your ability to hear words and translate them into meaning - and the ability to see flowers, bird, people, etc. and most of all - the abilty to think and reason as you do now. All those are functions of the brain and the body - and will end when it does. If the energy continues then it will be on an instinctual, or emotional level.

In the article you cited - the author points out the illusory image of the chair - and it is, because what we see as solid matter, is really made up of constantly moving molecules. Why does it hold you? Why does it not suddenly drop you to the ground, as the molecules run far away from eachother, causing a chasm? Because in the "illusion" or the "dream" we have developed certain 'rules'.

Yuppers, it's a dream. Sometimes a pleasant one, sometimes a terrifying one - and we decide beforehand what we will experience. IMHO that is.

[Satan]

I know just enough about molecular and quantum physics for it to scare the living shit out of me. ;D

There's just some things I don't think we oughta be fucking around with, no matter HOW 'curious' we might be, or how 'well-intentioned'.

Famous last words: "Hey y'all, watch thi...OH SHIT!"

[truelies]

This is the kind of shit that gives me the creeps:........................................... ........




The Nanos are great for 'things that go bump in the night' pretzels and beer conversation but it is unlikely that they would be able to reproduce at a geometrical rate anymore than a virus is able to. I am though willing to but the idea that synthetic diseases might be a possibility.

The Universe as artifact page ..................... hmmmmmm, what can I say I KNOW I am real at least as a Soul. Physical matter as a reality maybe as full of holes as what Tig's chair analogy claims even if that 'chair full of holes' hurts like hell when I trip over it in the night.

Now for the REALLY scary possibility that the site did not mention- some physicists beleave that for their quantum equations to balance that every possibility must be realised- i.e. there is a Reality where the CSA is a going concern and Abe Lincoln was hanged as a War Criminal for instance. Indeed an infinite number of Realities for every tiny shade of variation would logically exist. A Place even where Badz is a fiery SBC Preacher and sky/wendy/suth are leading thumpers in the front pew each sunday. Now imagine that a tiny tear in space time has dumped you from this comfortable well worn space-time to that other place. And y'all thought being turned to grey goo was scary. ;)

[Satan]

Now for the REALLY scary possibility that the site did not mention- some physicists beleave that for their quantum equations to balance that every possibility must be realised- i.e. there is a Reality where the CSA is a going concern and Abe Lincoln was hanged as a War Criminal for instance. Indeed an infinite number of Realities for every tiny shade of variation would logically exist. A Place even where Badz is a fiery SBC Preacher and sky/wendy/suth are leading thumpers in the front pew each sunday. Now imagine that a tiny tear in space time has dumped you from this comfortable well worn space-time to that other place. And y'all thought being turned to grey goo was scary. ;)

Wouldn't that scenario necessarily include the possibility that the Universe never came into existence to begin with? Could we be dumped into a 'place' if it didn't exist?

This stuff is giving my country ass a headache. I'll be glad when kathleen gets here to tell me that there's a perfectly logical explanation for all of this shit. ;D

[truelies]

Wouldn't that scenario necessarily include the possibility that the Universe never came into existence to begin with? Could we be dumped into a 'place' if it didn't exist?........................



Some of the people who write on this stuff take the position that it is Conciousness that creates reality- if you can imagine it then it will happen. However given that MY Conciousness is the only one I am certain exists and I CANNOT imagine a null universe IMHO then that possibility you mention is excluded.

[kathleen]

This stuff is giving my country ass a headache. I'll be glad when kathleen gets here to tell me that there's a perfectly logical explanation for all of this shit. ;D


The probability is good that there is a perfectly logical explanation for all of this shit. Someday mankind might even discover it. ;)

We just don't know. More importantly my country ass doesn't know. I can only speculate like the rest of you bumpkins. ;D

[arod]

These new, fledgling communities won't be without conflict. Most people will still be in shock, the alphas will rise to the positions of leadership (undoubtably fighting among themselves), mistakes will be made. It really comes down to luck more than anything else. If the post-apocalypse world is still habitable, if there are enough survivors to make a functional society (and breeding population), if there are strong leaders to lead the group past the pitfalls and dangers of the new environment................humanity should be able to continue.

If this

http://www.arcticphoto.co.uk/search/previews/am0084-26m.jpg

is to be the destiny of the human race, perhaps oblivion is worth a second look.

[arod]

In the article you cited - the author points out the illusory image of the chair - and it is, because what we see as solid matter, is really made up of constantly moving molecules. Why does it hold you? Why does it not suddenly drop you to the ground, as the molecules run far away from eachother, causing a chasm? Because in the "illusion" or the "dream" we have developed certain 'rules'.

There is no illusion. The perception of the chair as a solid object is a limited view of what the chair actually is, just as is a view of the molecules of the chair under an electron microscope. You might just as reasonably claim the view of the fron of the elephant is illusory because it doesn't include the back of the elephant.

[kathleen]

If this is to be the destiny of the human race, perhaps oblivion is worth a second look.


It isn't just the destiny of the human race. It's the way we are.

Some might argue that a post-apocalypse society would be a better society since it will be mostly the strong that survive. And that there is so much weakness tolerated in today's society - weak characters, weak mentalities, weak morality - so many people who allow others to do their thinking for them.

Wonderful pic BTW. Thank you for sharing it. I find it very uplifting. :)

[Satan]

It isn't just the destiny of the human race. It's the way we are.

Some might argue that a post-apocalypse society would be a better society since it will be mostly the strong that survive. And that there is so much weakness tolerated in today's society - weak characters, weak mentalities, weak morality - so many people who allow others to do their thinking for them.


Just my luck, if I survived, there'd be one person in my 'village' aggravating the hell out of us about everybody eating a 'low carb' diet. ::)



The rest of us would kill him. ;D

[kathleen]

The rest of us would kill him. ;D


You wouldn't have to - exile pretty much always equals death in primative societies. Though if he hung around the fringes of your community you could always send the hounds after him. ;)

Which brings us to the point of community - cooperation is necessary for survival.

It's the rare lone wolf that can survive on his own. :)

[arod]

It isn't just the destiny of the human race. It's the way we are.

And that beats incineration by a supernova because...?

Some might argue that a post-apocalypse society would be a better society since it will be mostly the strong that survive. And that there is so much weakness tolerated in today's society - weak characters, weak mentalities, weak morality - so many people who allow others to do their thinking for them.

And you don't think weakness is tolerated in a wolf pack? What the hell do you think you're looking at in that pic?

Wonderful pic BTW. Thank you for sharing it. I find it very uplifting. :)

How in hell can a human being be uplifted by a display of animal behavior?

[Satan]

Which brings us to the point of community - cooperation is necessary for survival.

In that respect, the odds are most definitely stacked against modern man. We can't seem to agree on much of anything.

[Satan]

How in hell can a human being be uplifted by a display of animal behavior?


I don't know, man... I've seen human females (in their natural state) 'displaying animal behaviors' that were pretty 'uplifting'. ;D

[kathleen]

And that beats incineration by a supernova because...?

Sometimes you are so irritating that I kind of wish you could be incinerated by a supernova. :D

What is your worldview Arod? How is it that you think the ideal world should be? Why are you so negative and unhappy? Why do you see evil everywhere you look?

What is it that will make you happy? A world full of Arods - people who all think and believe the way you do? ???

And you don't think weakness is tolerated in a wolf pack?

I understand that a certain amount of weakness will be accepted in a pack. In no way will the weak members be allowed to lead though.

What the hell do you think you're looking at in that pic?

I cannot accurately determine that without observing their behavioral patterns. One picture doesn't show it.

This picture can be interpreted as a show of dominance and submissiveness. However, in a wild wolf pack, those words have different meanings than those we apply to ourselves. There is no vindictiveness or cruelty or injustice associated with the dominant member and no irrational fear or insecurity associated with the weaker one. In fact, the social order does much to promote security and happiness in the pack.

Not really a dog person, are you? Any responsible (and observant) dog owner could tell you the same thing. And he wouldn't even have to get a "higher" education to know it. ;)

How in hell can a human being be uplifted by a display of animal behavior?


Can't see God in His creation, can you?

That's very sad. :'(

[kathleen]

I don't know, man... I've seen human females (in their natural state) 'displaying animal behaviors' that were pretty 'uplifting'. ;D


I could be wrong here but I think Arod is under the impression that we are absolutely, certainly, with a doubt NOT animals. We are different. We are inspired. We are the Lords of Creation.

It's the same kind of attitude that lead to the environmental messes we find ourselves in today.

I like the Native Indian idea and mythology of the animals being our brothers and sisters, guides and teachers. We live the same life, breath the same air, drink the same water. I see no rational reason why respect for nature should be seen as evil and satanic, particularly by the religionists. We are part of this great circle of life, it's inevitable that we are going to leave our footprints. But that shouldn't be our excuse for preventing other creatures from leaving their own marks on this planet (we got into some tracking this summer - it's really cool - I can't help being excited about it). ;D

[arod]

What is your worldview Arod? How is it that you think the ideal world should be?

Couldn't tell you. I can only tell you some of the ways I think it shouldn't be.

Why are you so negative and unhappy? Why do you see evil everywhere you look?

Why do you make up this nonsense?

What is it that will make you happy? A world full of Arods - people who all think and believe the way you do? ???

Sure. That's why I hang around here. ::)

I understand that a certain amount of weakness will be accepted in a pack. In no way will the weak members be allowed to lead though.

And how exactly is that reassuring with respect to humanity? You find it comforting to think the survival of the species would be perpetuated by an endless chain of Hitlers and Stalins?

I cannot accurately determine that without observing their behavioral patterns. One picture doesn't show it. This picture can be interpreted as a show of dominance and submissiveness. However, in a wild wolf pack, those words have different meanings than those we apply to ourselves. There is no vindictiveness or cruelty or injustice associated with the dominant member and no irrational fear or insecurity associated with the weaker one. In fact, the social order does much to promote security and happiness in the pack.

I'm aware of all that. What the hell makes you think such a system could be applied to human beings outside of anything but an endless nightmare?

[LanceALott]

The end will come when some "Christian" like Arod pisses God off.

[truelies]

Sometimes you are so irritating that I kind of wish you could be incinerated by a supernova. :D



ah, Kath those supernova thingys are rather general in their effects. Could you not wish something a little more specific and local on him? :o :o :o

[LanceALott]

ah, Kath those supernova thingys are rather general in their effects. Could you not wish something a little more specific and local on him? :o :o :o


For it is writtem: TO EACH IS APPOINTED A TIME TO DIE.

Arod will get his.

[Tiger]

There is no illusion. The perception of the chair as a solid object is a limited view of what the chair actually is, just as is a view of the molecules of the chair under an electron microscope. You might just as reasonably claim the view of the fron of the elephant is illusory because it doesn't include the back of the elephant.



And that would be correct. Anytime we judge something to be "whole" by only a limited, and distorted "partial" view of it - we are not seeing it totally. If we do not see it as it is - we see it as it isnt'. If we make the judgement that the elephant is a head with tusks and a trunk - then we are not see what the elephant really is. Our perception is an "illusion" of what the real thing is.

Same with life here as we know it. Are, or are we not ONLY bodies with minds and emotions? Sure, we have intellects and desires - but is that who we really ARE?

If NOT - then what we REALLY are - lies elsewhere - hence, what we see is an illusion.

And partially what you say is correct - it is a limited view - but a limited view is often more misrepresentative than no view at all.

[arod]

I see no rational reason why respect for nature should be seen as evil and satanic, particularly by the religionists.

You're not talking about a healthy respect for nature. You're saying the behavior of animals is uplifting. How can any behavior that is (presumably) more animalistic than your own be uplifting? Do you find anything "uplifting" about the cannibalism practiced by some aboriginal cultures?

[arod]

If we make the judgement that the elephant is a head with tusks and a trunk - then we are not see what the elephant really is. Our perception is an "illusion" of what the real thing is.

That's the key. To the degree that we cannot look at things we don't understand without making judgments, our perceptions are illusions.

[kathleen]

How can any behavior that is (presumably) more animalistic than your own be uplifting? Do you find anything "uplifting" about the cannibalism practiced by some aboriginal cultures?


According to your logic I should find this cannabolistic behavior more uplifting than anything I observe in nature since it is the mightly god-made human that is doing it. ::)

Let's see, so anything we humans do must be more "uplifting" than anything any other animal species does because, well, we're special, we're human, right?

What are these "uplifting" human behaviors? Warmongering, murdering, backstabbing, lying, cheating, envying, hating, selfish, short-sighted behavior of humans is suppose to be superior and more "uplifting" than the natural behavior of wolves...............is that what you are telling me?

Tell YOU what, you go ahead and be "uplifted" by these humans if you want and let me find my peace in the bush with the wild animals. I mean, according to your standard of ethics, I'm going to hell anyway, so why do you think that trying to convince me to stop my "Gaia-worshipping" is going to save me from my fate? EH? ;D

[arod]

According to your logic I should find this cannabolistic behavior more uplifting than anything I observe in nature since it is the mightly god-made human that is doing it. ::)

Not so, because my logic takes into account the dualistic nature of fallen man...but we've pretty well beaten that one to death, so I won't waste any more time repeating myself.

Let's see, so anything we humans do must be more "uplifting" than anything any other animal species does because, well, we're special, we're human, right?

What are these "uplifting" human behaviors? Warmongering, murdering, backstabbing, lying, cheating, envying, hating, selfish, short-sighted behavior of humans is suppose to be superior and more "uplifting" than the natural behavior of wolves...............is that what you are telling me?

No, I'm telling you that those behaviors arise from the cultivation of the animal part of man's nature.

[Satan]

Not so, because my logic takes into account the dualistic nature of fallen man...but we've pretty well beaten that one to death, so I won't waste any more time repeating myself.

This is just great. The mountain doesn't fall out of the sky, it doesn't cause tsunamis and earthquakes and fires and swarms of locusts, it doesn't kill us all, the world doesn't end...and you two go right back to having the same argument you've always had.

Somehow I was hoping the New World was gonna be different. ::)

;D

[arod]

This is just great. The mountain doesn't fall out of the sky, it doesn't cause tsunamis and earthquakes and fires and swarms of locusts, it doesn't kill us all, the world doesn't end...and you two go right back to having the same argument you've always had.

Fascinating, isn't it? :)

[truelies]

I could be wrong here but I think Arod is under the impression that we are absolutely, certainly, with a doubt NOT animals. We are different. We are inspired. We are the Lords of Creation.

It's the same kind of attitude that lead to the environmental messes we find ourselves in today.

I like the Native Indian idea and mythology.............................


Hmmmmmm, OK the Indians did not follow any of the Abraham religions yet they managed to drive a fair number of animal species to extinction long before Europeans got here.