Talk of the draft...........a poll

[tileman]

For me and mine I say no...........at this point I'd want to know more and be convinced it was true first.

We're being asked to believe they know a lot more than we're being told at this point basically. Ain't good enough.

[jeny]

no draft, ever.

[tileman]

WTF..........everybody afraid to chime in on this one?
Are you so sure that this war isn't to enrich the Bush family and friends that you'll sacrifice YOUR sons, nephews, and grandchildren?

[BrandonL]

The draft is never needed-unless the war is so bad that we have no other choice (as in attrition rates are so high-no one is volunteering). Get people who WANT to be in there, in there. Not someone conscripted.

[sodaknomad]

I don't think a draft is going to be necessary for this one. It'll be another Desert Storm.

I do, however, believe that at least two years of military training/service should be required of all.

[kathleen]

I'm with Sodak on this one.

This little conflict with Iraq is not going to require the draft to be successful.

Reinstating the draft will be important for another reason. The alternative to it is having a professional army - what the US has now. Which makes the American military the best in the world (a good thing) but also gives the American empire (which is pretty much what it is) the means and opportunity to dictate and enforce it's decisions not only on any other country but also it's own citizenry (a bad thing).

[tileman]

I don't think a draft is going to be necessary for this one. It'll be another Desert Storm.

I do, however, believe that at least two years of military training/service should be required of all.


If it were truly required by ALL, I might reconsider my stance. And if rich and poor equally shared fodder potential I definitely would..........but it would never happen.

If it's really so important let the oil barons put up THEIR son's ON the front lines, rather than the national guard or press corps. Let them lead INTO battle and get wet before assuming they can declare a war.

[sodaknomad]

DOD: Minorities Underrepresented in Combat
Newsmax Wires
Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2003

WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon denied that minorities and the poor comprise the bulk of its combat forces or bear disproportionate hazards in war, a perception left over from the Vietnam War era and the television show M*A*S*H, a senior defense official said Monday.
"It's interesting how long old ideas persist in the country at large," the senior defense official said.

At issue is a bill introduced by Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., to reintroduce the draft.

"I believe that if we are going to send our children to war, the governing principle must be that of shared sacrifice," Rangel wrote in an opinion article in December explaining his bill.

He contends the minorities and the poor are disproportionately represented in the military and that the burden of service should be more equitably spread amongst all races and socio-economic backgrounds. As only a handful of members of Congress had children in the military, Rangel contends the decision to commit them to war is too easy.

During the Vietnam War, the affluent, men in universities, married men and those with children were able to avoid the draft.

From the Pentagon's perspective, the demographic composition of the force is essentially immaterial because everyone in the services volunteered to be there.

According to Defense Department numbers, minorities are actually underrepresented in combat positions.

African-Americans of new enlistment age comprise roughly 15 percent of the U.S. population, but more than 20 percent of recruits are African-Americans, according to the Pentagon.

Only 15 Percent of Combat Force

"Blacks today account for 21 percent of the enlisted force, but make up only 15 percent of combat arms (e.g. infantry, armor, artillery). In contrast, blacks account for 36 percent of functional support and administration and 27 percent of medical and dental career fields."

To support the assertion that African-American soldiers are not put at disproportionate risk, the Pentagon cites casualty figures from the Gulf War: "While blacks accounted for 23 percent of military personnel deployed to the Gulf, they comprised only 17 percent of the combat or non-combat deaths. Whites, who made up 71 percent of the U.S. forces in the theater, accounted for 76 percent of the deaths."

The senior official asserted that African Americans in the military do considerably better than their counterparts in the civilian population, earning on average $32,004 annually, compared to the average African American's salary in the private sector of $27,900.

"Beyond earning more than their civilian peers, blacks in the military are better educated, more likely to come from two-parent households and come from families in which both mother and father are better educated," states a Pentagon fact sheet.

The Pentagon contends the composition of enlisted recruits is not very far off the composition of the same age population at large. Moreover, it claims the recruits come from marginally better-off families than average -- not the poor.

A survey conducted in 1999 of newly enlisted recruits showed a slight edge over their private-sector colleagues. Roughly 32 percent of enlisted recruits had fathers who had completed high school -- an indication of economic power -- compared to 31 percent of people the same age in the general population. Another 30 percent of enlisted recruits' fathers had completed some college, compared to 25 percent in the general population.

Ninety percent of newly enlisted recruits' fathers were employed, compared to 89 percent of the fathers of the recruit-age general populace.

However, when it came to college graduation or beyond, the families of the general population have a significant edge -- with 30 percent of their fathers having earned degrees, compared to 22 percent of the fathers of newly enlisted recruits.

Congress abolished the draft 30 years ago this summer.

While Rangel's proposal is unlikely to pass congressional muster, the Pentagon is adamant in its opposition to the idea.

"I think we all want a force that, roughly speaking, looks like America, and I think by and large that's what we have in the military --

in the military today. It's a great force," the senior defense official said Monday. "We think the volunteer force performs a lot better."

Copyright 2003 by United Press International.

[tileman]

The various representative groups would quickly return to the proportions seen during Korea and Viet Nam were the draft re-introduced without plugging the loopholes.

Everybody or nobody!

[truelies]

I voted NO on the poll. I see the draft as NEVER being acceptable or needed in a Nation like ours. Even WW2 could have been successfully fought without a Draft. Vietnam was a failure BECAUSE we had the Draft.

That said, I do believe that the States could legally/morally require a period of service in the Organised Militia as a condition for private ownership of firearms and/or full status as a Citizen.

[Satan]

a bill introduced by Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y

That's it, in a NUTshell. ::)

[Thunder Bay]

I voted no because if were not gonna nuke 'em, we should at least have NO ground troops involved. Our planes should bomb them into submission; why put ground troops in when they could be killed by friendly fire as well as the enemy?

On a side note, truelies; Vietnam was lost because dumb-ass politicians were running the show, not because of the draft. Rangel sucks, BTW.

[sodaknomad]

The various representative groups would quickly return to the proportions seen during Korea and Viet Nam were the draft re-introduced without plugging the loopholes.

Everybody or nobody!


Here are the loopholes, Tile, as provided by the SSS.

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CATEGORY REQUIRED TO REGISTER? MILITARY-RELATED

Active duty military. No*

Men attending service academies, like the U.S. Air Force Academy. No*

Men attending the U.S. Coast Guard Academy. No*

Men attending the Merchant Marine Academy. Yes

Male students in military officer procurement programs at The Citadel, North Georgia College and State University, Norwich University, Virginia Military Institute, Texas A&M University, and Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University. No*

Members of the National Guard or Reserves not on active duty. Yes

Delayed Entry Program enlistees. Yes

Men who separate from active duty military for any reason before they turn 26. Yes*

Men rejected for enlistment for any reason before turning 26. Yes

*Must register within 30 days of release unless already age 26, already registered when released, or exempt during entire period age 18 through 25.

ALIENS ** REQUIRED TO REGISTER?
Lawful non-immigrants on visas (e.g., diplomatic and consular personnel and families, foreign students, tourists with unexpired visas (Forms I-94, I-95A), or those with Border Crossing Documents (Forms I-185, I-186, I-444). No

Permanent resident aliens. Yes

Special (seasonal) agricultural workers (Form I-688). Yes

Special agricultural workers (Form I-688A). No

Refugee, parolee, and asylee aliens. Yes

Undocumented (illegal) aliens. Yes

NOTE: Immigrants who did not enter the United States or maintained their lawful non-immigrant status by continually remaining on a valid visa until after they were 26 years old were never required to register. Also, immigrants born before 1960 who did not enter the United States or maintained their lawful non-immigrant status by continually remaining on a valid visa until after March 29, 1975 were never required to register.

CONFINED REQUIRED TO REGISTER?
Incarcerated, hospitalized, or institutionalized for medical reasons. No*

HANDICAPPED PHYSICALLY OR MENTALLY REQUIRED TO REGISTER?
Able to function in public with or without assistance. Yes
Continually confined to a residence, hospital, or institution. No

* Must register within 30 days of release unless already age 26, already registered when released, or exempt during entire period age 18 through 25.

** Residents of Puerto Rico, Guam, Virgin Islands, and Northern Mariana Islands are U.S. citizens. Citizens of American Samoa are nationals and must register when their permanent address is in the U.S. This also goes for a national or citizen of the Republic of the Marshall Islands or the Federal States of Micronesia if they live in the U.S. for more than one year for any reason, except as a student or employee of the government of his homeland.

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That is already too many loopholes, and that's just the registration process. I think the only loopholes in the draft dhould be active duty, and attendance in a military academy [not a state "academy," neither.]

[BrandonL]

Sounds like a socialist (or fascist) idea-everyone must serve in the military to be a citizen. That way they can be fully indoctrinated into the ideas of: "patriotism", "nationalism", and what it means to be an "American".

[wendy]

Why screw up the military by forcing people in who have no desire to be there? You'd end up with a shitload of people who would be trying to undermine the entire organization.

Why screw up the military by forcing people in who have no desire to be there? You'd end up with a shitload of people who would be trying to undermine the entire organization.


If they have no desire to fight, I would consider it cleaning the gene pool upon their unfortunate demise.

[BrandonL]

If they have no desire to fight, I would consider it cleaning the gene pool upon their unfortunate demise.

Duh-then don't join the military. Oh wait-that would kill the socialists plans of bringing everyone into line.

[Thunder Bay]

Why screw up the military by forcing people in who have no desire to be there? You'd end up with a shitload of people who would be trying to undermine the entire organization.


Hey, Wendy;

I just now got done laughing; I didn't think the military needed any help screwin' up. Not the ones following orders; the ones at the top. ;D ;D ;D ;D

I would find it very difficult to believe that the American armed forces, as they stand right this minute, could not neutralize the threat from Iraq. Anyone pushing for the draft at this juncture sends up red flags in my mind as having a suspicious ulterior motive.

Wait til the body bags start coming home and the gung -ho mentality dies down. JUNIOR wont get his volunteers and will have to resort to the dratf as the US Militray has had to do for every major conflict. You guys talk a good war but when it comes to fighting you prove you're all talk.

Read a little history little fella. When the volunteer soldiers start getting killed the number of volunteers to go fight the enemy goes UP not down.

Most of us are too old to be drafted. I'd go fight for my country but they don't send middle-aged, family men to fight, they send young men.

I'll tell you what dickhead, when the body bags start coming home by the thousands you get to be the first to tell us all you told us so. Until then you are just a fart in a windstorm.

OAG,

You're just another fat, middle-aged, GI Joe, arm-chair General. You talk a good war but haven't got the balls to fight one. Sit back fat boy, eat hamburgs, drink beer, get fatter, and watch CNN. You pathetic old piece of shit. Family man my as, you're just a COWARD !

OAG,

You're just another fat, middle-aged, GI Joe, arm-chair General. You talk a good war but haven't got the balls to fight one. Sit back fat boy, eat hamburgs, drink beer, get fatter, and watch CNN. You pathetic old piece of shit. Family man my as, you're just a COWARD !


My avatar is me you dimwit. You can see for yourself that I am not fat but I am too old for the draft. I just turned forty years old. The armed forces wouldn't be interested even if I volunteered. I am too old and I actually DO have a family. I would gladly fight anyone, anytime and anywhere, if necessary, to protect that family. Being called a coward by a pissant twerp like you means nothing. You don't know me. I do not drink beer or eat hamburgers and I couldn't care less what's on CNN. Go pop your pimples on someone else. You have no clue who you are talking to.

[jeny]

Wait til the body bags start coming home and the gung -ho mentality dies down. JUNIOR wont get his volunteers and will have to resort to the dratf as the US Militray has had to do for every major conflict. You guys talk a good war but when it comes to fighting you prove you're all talk.


As oppposed to Canada who is a military super power...right?

[thebib]

Wait til the body bags start coming home and the gung -ho mentality dies down. JUNIOR wont get his volunteers and will have to resort to the dratf as the US Militray has had to do for every major conflict. You guys talk a good war but when it comes to fighting you prove you're all talk.


Yukkie:

After Canada commits the manpower, equipment and the money that the USA does ... THEN you MAY have right to your condesension. UNTIL such time, your disparaging comments are taken from whence they come.

All show, no go. ::)

And so I say to you:

Yo MAMA!

[thebib]

Read a little history little fella. When the volunteer soldiers start getting killed the number of volunteers to go fight the enemy goes UP not down.

Most of us are too old to be drafted. I'd go fight for my country but they don't send middle-aged, family men to fight, they send young men.

I'll tell you what dickhead, when the body bags start coming home by the thousands you get to be the first to tell us all you told us so. Until then you are just a fart in a windstorm.


I disagree. He's a "F in a W" either way. ;)

[thebib]

OAG,

You're just another fat, middle-aged, GI Joe, arm-chair General. You talk a good war but haven't got the balls to fight one. Sit back fat boy, eat hamburgs, drink beer, get fatter, and watch CNN. You pathetic old piece of shit. Family man my as, you're just a COWARD !


And we shall all take your comments from where they come and from whom they come...

Canada who talks the talks but does not walk the walk and like the rest of his countrymen, a Canadian who sits on his A** pontificating but would crawl down some icey hole should HE ever recieve a draft notice.

A maple leaf, the appropriate symbol for the flag of a nation ... the leaf, like the people wag in the breeze. ::)

I'll take the eagle and the cowboy psyche any day. Beats being a big mouth Canadian wimp who can't back up anything.

I think Bib should stop pulling punches and speak true feelings. ;)

If I were facing a Canadian holding a hockey stick and challenging me to a game of hockey I might let him call me a coward but someone from a country that hasn't been to war or even seen a hint of a threat of it in 200 years calling ANY Americans cowards is ludicrous.

[Flyrod]

I think Bib should stop pulling punches and speak true feelings. ;)

If I were facing a Canadian holding a hockey stick and challenging me to a game of hockey I might let him call me a coward but someone from a country that hasn't been to war or even seen a hint of a threat of it in 200 years calling ANY Americans cowards is ludicrous.


>>> Canada and Mexico both are a pain in the butt!!
Maybe our first line of defense should be the north and south borders!!! They just bitch, bitch, bitch!!!!!!!!!!! >:(
I wish Quebec and other provinces would just say screw Canada and get it over with!!! Damn place is on the verge, if you know what I mean!!!!! The sooner the better, ha!!!
;D ;D ;D 8)

[BoomerVet]

Why screw up the military by forcing people in who have no desire to be there? You'd end up with a shitload of people who would be trying to undermine the entire organization.


I was drafted. Three months after high school graduation. I served during a very turbulent time socially for America. I have to say that the Army I served with was 75% draftees and representative of all the races in America. They were not the kind you describe. They were brave and patriotic men who, like society in general, among them were found some sociopaths and idiots. But the military wasn't screwed up at the enlisted man level.

[ilovelucy]

I applaud those who are required to fight wars....regardless of whether they are natural born warriors or not....

I think we should draft every known gang member in the US whether he be a US citizen or not since illegals act as citizens anyway most of the time..They have a passion for the sport as it is.....train them to use the natural skill for our best interests and get them out of our hair!