The worship of evil beings

[kathleen]

OAG brought this up on another thread and it got me thinking.

How and more importantly why would anyone worship an evil being?

Let's say that the personification of evil that many Christians believe in really does exist. Why would you want to associate with true evil let alone worship it?

[Moonchild]

What is he willing to offer? ;)

Satanists, as in members of ‘church of Satan’, are really more of ‘is – ought’ers’, and are not worshipping evil as such.

In fact they think the 'altruistic' God is unnatural, and hence the 'evil' one.

[arod]

OAG brought this up on another thread and it got me thinking.

How and more importantly why would anyone worship an evil being?

Let's say that the personification of evil that many Christians believe in really does exist. Why would you want to associate with true evil let alone worship it?

If I believed evil was good, then I'd worship the devil. The question then becomes, how can a person believe that?

[BrandonL]

If I believed evil was good, then I'd worship the devil. The question then becomes, how can a person believe that?


Depends on where you are sitting. Perhaps what you consider good is actually evil.

What the media and Christians consider "Satanists" aren't really Satanists (as in LeVey followers)...just a title they decide to give em.

[BrandonL]

gives them the feeling of belonging to a secret society where no one else can join except nerds like them.
WOW! I never knew that the National Honor Society was a Satanic cult!! :P

[SENOR DON GATO]

First, I think one needs to decide a couple of things:

1. Who created evil? Where did it come from?

2. Can the Christian God commit evil?


Because if he can do evil and folks worship Him - what is the difference?

Semantics.

[LanceALott]

"If I believed evil was good, then I'd worship the devil. The question then becomes, how can a person believe that? "

LaL: Maybe it is because they have seen the evil in the religion called "Christianity" where priests abuse thier power to molest little boys or to corruptly collect and spend the "good" money that was given to God, and think the opposite must be better?

Evil is as evil does.

But I can't imagine anyone stupid enough to go to a Satanic church. I mean why? I'd rather go fishing.

First, I think one needs to decide a couple of things:

1. Who created evil? Where did it come from?

2. Can the Christian God commit evil?


Because if he can do evil and folks worship Him - what is the difference?

Semantics.


That is lame logic if I ever heard it. ::)

[SENOR DON GATO]

First, I think one needs to decide a couple of things:

1. Who created evil? Where did it come from?

2. Can the Christian God commit evil?


Because if he can do evil and folks worship Him - what is the difference?

Semantics.


That is lame logic if I ever heard it. ::)


So you say - but you can't explain why. I think instead that the concept just threatens your belief system so you dismiss it. Religiosity will do that to a person. It's called being brainwashed.

Evil is evil as long as it isn't God that is doing it. Uh-huh. ::)

But if God does it - it is no longer evil. Okay.

First, I think one needs to decide a couple of things:

1. Who created evil? Where did it come from?

2. Can the Christian God commit evil?


Because if he can do evil and folks worship Him - what is the difference?

Semantics.


That is lame logic if I ever heard it. ::)


So you say - but you can't explain why. I think instead that the concept just threatens your belief system so you dismiss it. Religiosity will do that to a person. It's called being brainwashed.

Evil is evil as long as it isn't God that is doing it. Uh-huh. ::)

But if God does it - it is no longer evil. Okay.


Again you talk out your ass and have no idea what you are talking about.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Again you talk out your ass and have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh, I see. Is that why you are too frightened to answer? Hmmmm...?

Again you talk out your ass and have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh, I see. Is that why you are too frightened to answer? Hmmmm...?


How can you answer an ignorant person? How can you explain spiritual things to a spiritually dead person? You might as well spend your time on how to making drinking water out of camel piss.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Again you talk out your ass and have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh, I see. Is that why you are too frightened to answer? Hmmmm...?


How can you answer an ignorant person? How can you explain spiritual things to a spiritually dead person? You might as well spend your time on how to making drinking water out of camel piss.


When the truth is not on your side - insult.

::)

First, I think one needs to decide a couple of things:

1. Who created evil? Where did it come from?

2. Can the Christian God commit evil?


Because if he can do evil and folks worship Him - what is the difference?

Semantics.


Decided then

1. Evil exists because good exists. It is merely the opposition to good. Evil was not created.

2. No, the Christian God cannot do evil. By very definition He is pure good. A being capable of commiting evil could not be God.

Again you talk out your ass and have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh, I see. Is that why you are too frightened to answer? Hmmmm...?


How can you answer an ignorant person? How can you explain spiritual things to a spiritually dead person? You might as well spend your time on how to making drinking water out of camel piss.


When the truth is not on your side - insult.

::)


The truth? What the hell is the truth? Your truth or my truth? Is it truthful to come on here as SENOR DON GATO one day and someone else another day? Is that truth?

[SENOR DON GATO]

Again you talk out your ass and have no idea what you are talking about.


Oh, I see. Is that why you are too frightened to answer? Hmmmm...?


How can you answer an ignorant person? How can you explain spiritual things to a spiritually dead person? You might as well spend your time on how to making drinking water out of camel piss.


When the truth is not on your side - insult.

::)


The truth? What the hell is the truth? Your truth or my truth? Is it truthful to come on here as SENOR DON GATO one day and someone else another day? Is that truth?


Are you a lone star?

Hmm.....?

I rest my case.

[SENOR DON GATO]

[quote author=OAG link=board=4;threadid=877;start=0#21868

Decided then

1. Evil exists because good exists. It is merely the opposition to good. Evil was not created.

2. No, the Christian God cannot do evil. By very definition He is pure good. A being capable of commiting evil could not be God.
[/quote]

Are you sure?

Are you one of those people who think the bible is inerrant?

[Lazarus]

Evil is the absence of good. Only God is good, therefore everything elese is evil. People worship evil all the time.

Trinkets. Nature. Money. Statues. Icons. Themselves. You name it, and somebody has worshipped it somewhere at some time--I would venture.

The question is NOT why anyone would worship evil--since evil is all around us. The question is really why would anyone worship a good but quite invisible God?

Now THAT takes true faith. ;D

[SENOR DON GATO]

Evil is the absence of good. Only God is good, therefore everything elese is evil. People worship evil all the time.

Trinkets. Nature. Money. Statues. Icons. Themselves. You name it, and somebody has worshipped it somewhere at some time--I would venture.

The question is NOT why anyone would worship evil--since evil is all around us. The question is really why would anyone worship a good but quite invisible God?

Now THAT takes true faith. ;D


Wondered when you would weigh in, Laz.

So tell me, since lonestar is afraid to - can an act be evil when one entity commits it and not when another entity does?

For instance, is it evil if I stab a person to death - but not evil if YOU do it? Does evil depend on the entity commiting the act - or is it the act, itself, which determines the evilness?

Evil is the absence of good. Only God is good, therefore everything elese is evil. People worship evil all the time.

Trinkets. Nature. Money. Statues. Icons. Themselves. You name it, and somebody has worshipped it somewhere at some time--I would venture.

The question is NOT why anyone would worship evil--since evil is all around us. The question is really why would anyone worship a good but quite invisible God?

Now THAT takes true faith. ;D


Wondered when you would weigh in, Laz.

So tell me, since lonestar is afraid to - can an act be evil when one entity commits it and not when another entity does?

For instance, is it evil if I stab a person to death - but not evil if YOU do it? Does evil depend on the entity commiting the act - or is it the act, itself, which determines the evilness?


I'm not afraid of anything least of all you. Did you know I killed a mouse with my bare hands?

Don't get all thrilled about Laz responding, he's a lonely little boy.

[SENOR DON GATO]

[quote author=lonestar link=board=4;threadid=877;start=15#21878

I'm not afraid of anything least of all you. Did you know I killed a mouse with my bare hands?

Don't get all thrilled about Laz responding, he's a lonely little boy.
[/quote]

Laz defends his beliefs. I like that. Sometimes he takes up many pages doing it but it is still interesting.

I killed a mouse with D-Con. Less messy, but smelly if it dies under the fridge and bloats in the warm environment.

Listen don gato, you will forever be seeking the origin of evil and will never find it unless you acknowledge there is a God for evil is the opposite of good as OAG said.

If there is no God there is no evil.

[quote author=lonestar link=board=4;threadid=877;start=15#21878

I'm not afraid of anything least of all you. Did you know I killed a mouse with my bare hands?

Don't get all thrilled about Laz responding, he's a lonely little boy.




Laz defends his beliefs. I like that. Sometimes he takes up many pages doing it but it is still interesting.

I killed a mouse with D-Con. Less messy, but smelly if it dies under the fridge and bloats in the warm environment.




I love 'ol Laz like a cyber brother but he only says what he believes in and LanceAlot says what he believes in and buzzie says what he believes so what if he stands up for what be believes? I could stand up for what I believe in but who cares? What is truth? What is the whole damn truth and nothing but the truth? It ain't here, this is a manure yard for belief's.[/quote]

OAG brought this up on another thread and it got me thinking.

How and more importantly why would anyone worship an evil being?

Let's say that the personification of evil that many Christians believe in really does exist. Why would you want to associate with true evil let alone worship it?


Human beings are capable of great good and great evil almost at the same moment. I believe that some people are predisposed by personality traits and subsequent environmental influences toward either good or evil. Given a population of millions of people it is inevitable that extremes of one end of that spectrum and the other will appear from time to time. I think it comes down to pleasure/reward. Some people derive pleasure from doing acts they believe to be good and some people derive pleasure from doing acts they believe to be evil. The former is bound to see the latter as perverse in some way and vice versa.

Some people actually revel in the thought that others consider them dangerous, dark, mysterious or evil or all of the above. The goths go out of their way to be outrageous in their quest for that perception. In the end it must satisfy some primal need. Who knows? Who cares? Most people like that aren't truly evil they are just pathetic. They didn't get breast fed or hugged enough as children so they become twisted, pathetic geeks who can't get attention by doing anything worthwhile so they get it by becoming side-show freaks.

Entertainers like Ozzy, Alice Cooper, Slayer and Marilyn Manson don't actually worship anyone but themselves. They don't actually believe and indulge in the crap they put in their music. They do that shit to sell it. Shock and shlock sells records. If Slayer really were all that obsessed with death they'd have all committed homicide or suicide by now. Stupid goths and heschers think these guys are their gurus and make them millionaires. They delve into the occult and the death trip and goth crap in dark basements and goth clubs while Marilyn Manson and Alice Cooper are sipping lattes out on the golf course in sunny Palm Springs.

I believe that Satan and demons do actually exist. I believe that the Pagan gods named in the Bible and primitive cultures were/are actual entities, and that they are evil in nature. The only being of light (good if you please) who is worthy of worship and seeks it is God...because HE IS the Creator. Any being that would seek human worship would be an enemy of God. That they may have a modicum of power and the ability to reward their worshippers in some small ways is a matter of speculation on my part. You would have to ask a satanist or voodoo practitioner.

[Lazarus]

Evil is the absence of good. Only God is good, therefore everything elese is evil. People worship evil all the time.

Trinkets. Nature. Money. Statues. Icons. Themselves. You name it, and somebody has worshipped it somewhere at some time--I would venture.

The question is NOT why anyone would worship evil--since evil is all around us. The question is really why would anyone worship a good but quite invisible God?

Now THAT takes true faith. ;D



Wondered when you would weigh in, Laz.


Well, when topics are floundering like this one, I try to put things in there proper perspective. ;D


can an act be evil when one entity commits it and not when another entity does?


Identical acts are inherently identical. If evil, then evil.



For instance, is it evil if I stab a person to death - but not evil if YOU do it?


Was either act commited in self-defense or in defense of the innocent? If so, then the "wrong" involved in the act of killing is mitigated by the overriding morality involved in defending the innocent. If both acts were commited not for defence of the innocent, but with some evil motive--greed, lust, power, self-gratification, etc.--with no mitigating circumstances, then both acts must be deemed morally reprehensible--or "evil." If I acted to defend the innocent, but you acted out of spite, then my act would not be deemed "evil" but your act would be deemed "evil". Similarly, my act would be evil if I acted out of spite or anger while your actions would not be considered evil if you acted out of a desire to defend the innocent and prevent the shedding of innocent blood. Clear?


Does evil depend on the entity commiting the act - or is it the act, itself, which determines the evilness?


It depends upon the circumstances. God cannot be evil or God would cease to be God. Similarly if salt ceases to be salty, then it is no longer salt--but useless. If I as a private citizen imprison you, then what I have done is evil. But if the government imprisons you upon conviction for the commission of a crime that you commited, then there is justice in the very same act of imprisonment. So how can true justice be evil? Easy, if what true justice demands is that all evil beings be killed, then we are all quite properly sentenced to die. Yet, God is BETTER than to require true justice of us (that we should all die) in that He paid the penalty for us through the sacrifice and atonement by His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ upon the cross at Calvary--in that, while we were yet sinners and deserving of our executions (while we were totally unworthy in evil sins), He sent His Son so that we might be to redeemed through Him. :)

Are you sure?

Are you one of those people who think the bible is inerrant?


Am I sure of what? Am I sure that God cannot be anything but pure good and remain God? Absolutely. There is no logical thought by which God can be or do anything evil. Assigning such to him would render him a lesser god. There is no logical thought by which God can exist as anything less than perfect in every way.

What I think of the Bible is irrelevant to your questions.

So tell me, since lonestar is afraid to - can an act be evil when one entity commits it and not when another entity does?

For instance, is it evil if I stab a person to death - but not evil if YOU do it? Does evil depend on the entity commiting the act - or is it the act, itself, which determines the evilness?


This is not directed at me but I'll take a stab at it...get it? stab...I kill me.

If you stab someone in self defense the act is not necessarily evil. If you provoke the attack for the express purpose of stabbing them in self defense it is. If you merely stab someone for the hell of it there is little doubt whether that is evil or not. The same guidelines apply to me or Lonestar or anyone else. It isn't so much the act as the intention. The identity of the actor is irrelevant.

[Aussie Thinker]

I think the logic is.. If you consider God to be evil then it is wise to worship him to avoid him visiting evil on YOU !

The most EVIL thing a supposed deity has ever done is to wipe out the entire human animal and plant population… the God of the Bible did that with the exception of a few individuals.

That is PURE EVIL !

[arod]

I think the logic is.. If you consider God to be evil then it is wise to worship him to avoid him visiting evil on YOU !

The most EVIL thing a supposed deity has ever done is to wipe out the entire human animal and plant population… the God of the Bible did that with the exception of a few individuals.

That is PURE EVIL !

Aw come on, Aussie...He only did it once. :)

The most EVIL thing a supposed deity has ever done is to wipe out the entire human animal and plant population… the God of the Bible did that with the exception of a few individuals.

That is PURE EVIL !



Why is that pure evil? Everything dies. Sooner or later everything will die. God, if He exists, has always been the person who determines when, where and how everything will die. If it is evil for Him to do so in the case of the flood then it is evil for Him to do so in the case of a single, solitary rose bud. You only perceive the flood as evil because it was one large catastrophy. So much death seems unreasonable and therefor evil to you. However, God was simply doing what He has always done and always will do as long as earth is around. He was deciding, for His own purposes, to end the lives of (a great many) plants, animals and humans.

You are making the mistake that Don Gato was leading up to, I'm guessing. I believe He was about to bring up some incident in the Bible and declare that if a human did it we would consider it evil and since God did it we must still consider it evil. The mistake is in placing God's actions into the temporal realm and holding Him accountable to human morality. This is a simple trap to avoid but I've seen a huge number of otherwise relatively intelligent skeptics fall face first into it. Rest assured you are in good company in presenting your evidence of God committing evil. You would probably be in even better company if you were to see the glaring flaw in doing that but since I've yet to see a skeptic perceive or admit to that flaw I wouldn't know what company that might be. I suppose it would be the company of those of us who know and understand God for who and what He truly is. The danger in that is that you might actually believe He exists and then you'd become one of us superstitious people instead of a gloriously enlightened thinker.

If you had read the Bible a bit more carefully you might also have noticed the passages that preceed the description of the flood. These passages give large hints as to why it was necessary for God to do what He did. I suggest that the destruction of evil is not an evil act.

[jeny]

My personal belief is that humans are NOT inherently evil. In fact, as we are created in the image of God, which is what I believe, we are inherently good. But that we have the potential for great many evils. We are creatures with free will, and we choose our inherent goodness or we can choose to embrace our evil potential.

I believe this because I believe that God loves each and every one of us, no mattter what we CHOOSE to do, and God could not LOVE evil.

I don't buy that man is "evil" in the way many fundamentalist Christians preach. I just don't.

[Lazarus]

I think the logic is.. If you consider God to be evil then it is wise to worship him to avoid him visiting evil on YOU !

The most EVIL thing a supposed deity has ever done is to wipe out the entire human animal and plant population… the God of the Bible did that with the exception of a few individuals.

That is PURE EVIL !



There is another wasy to view the story of Noah~~

God (who is good), foresaw that there was going to be a calamatous act of nature (Satan, you will recall is the "god" who was given power and who ruled over the material world).

God tried to tell EVERYONE what was about to happen to try to save everyone--but--only Noah would listen to God and heed His warnings.

God, working through Noah, came up with a spectacular plan that enabled the preservation of life on earth--one which Noah was able to implement despite his very advanced years.

So, God acted for the salvation of humanity. :)

My personal belief is that humans are NOT inherently evil. In fact, as we are created in the image of God, which is what I believe, we are inherently good. But that we have the potential for great many evils. We are creatures with free will, and we choose our inherent goodness or we can choose to embrace our evil potential.

I believe this because I believe that God loves each and every one of us, no mattter what we CHOOSE to do, and God could not LOVE evil.

I don't buy that man is "evil" in the way many fundamentalist Christians preach. I just don't.


You know I agree with everything you said here Jeny. The only thing that seperates us from God is the choices we make. A baby is born innocent and it's only after they're older and able to make choices for themselves does sin enter that removes us from the good influences that God has to offer. As we repent we draw back to him. If there was not evil how would we know what is good? We experience both while were here and make a choice between the two, without it we would only be robots going through the motions.

[kathleen]

1. Evil exists because good exists. It is merely the opposition to good. Evil was not created.

2. No, the Christian God cannot do evil. By very definition He is pure good. A being capable of commiting evil could not be God.


OK, good, we have a discussion going and some very interesting ideas are being brought up.

I'm not being critical, OAG, but there is something that doesn't make sense about your answer.

In the beginning (it is taught in the Christian faith), there was God, and God was alone, and He created all things. If God did not create evil, who did? How did it come to existence? If there is an evil being responsible for evil and God did not create it then it must have always existed (just like God) so essentially there are 2 Gods - one evil and one good. So therefore God didn't create all things (at least not evil) which only makes Him partially God-like, who isn't as all powerful as claimed.

Can you see the problem in the logic?

[kathleen]

Evil is the absence of good.

Yet God is suppose to everywhere - like the all seeing eye. Where is he not present? And how could he be not present?

Only God is good, therefore everything else is evil.

Try telling Jen that this is true about Alexa (or any new mother about their baby).

People worship evil all the time. Trinkets. Nature. Money. Statues. Icons. Themselves.

Really? Comes back to the same thing - God apparently created all things. For example, according to the book of Genesis, God created nature. Now you are saying it is evil. God created us and we are evil. If God created evil doesn't it make Him evil?

[kathleen]

If there is no God there is no evil.


If there is no God there is no anything (according to Christianity) because God created all things. But if God didn't create evil then he didn't create all things. That still leaves the question of where evil comes from, Lonestar.

If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

[kathleen]

I don't buy that man is "evil" in the way many fundamentalist Christians preach. I just don't.


It's not just fundamentalists, it is all christians. The Catholics have the concept of original sin (basically saying we are born bad). Most Protestant sects retained the practice of baptism - again an admission of human imperfection, that there is something wrong with us that has to be fixed.

[LanceALott]

OAG: I suggest that the destruction of evil is not an evil act.

LaL: What an interesting thought. I bet that's what the pilots were thinking on 9-11.

[LanceALott]

badnews: If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

LaL: Well, it's like this: Good and Evil canot be seperated. There is some good in all evil and some evil in all good. They are like the opposite sides of the same coin, and what you see good/evil depends upon where you are looking from. What looks good to some, is seen as pure evil by others.

Since Lararus, in his signature, already recognizes me as God after I raised him from the dead,, I might as well tell you this truth: You cannot have one without the other.

And while I'm at it, you should know the Children of Israel really are my Chosen People, but what I did not tell Abraham when I gave him that good news was the evil on the other side of the coin; and that is they are not my only Chosen People. You see, my Master Race is the whole damn Human Race, and I have no Favorite Children. In My eyes you are all equal: the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[SENOR DON GATO]

If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?


Good question. And since He does not eliminate it - I would hazard a guess that it is because if evil exists - it is a part of God. Would He eliminate a part of Himself?

I know that some of the posters here have said that evil cannot be a part of God and that He cannot do any evil - and I think OAG is correct in assuming that it is 'intent' and not simply the act that determine 'evil'.

Outside of the Bible - there is really no acceptable basis for learning about the Christian God, so I would like to present a few scriptures from that book.

Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

That passage alludes to the fact that God, indeed, can commit evil. You will note that they could have used a word such as 'wrath' or 'vengeance' - but the word 'evil' is the one that occures.


And then,

2Sa 17:14
And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

Once again, it seems apparent that evil is an act the LORD is capable of.

Jer 32:42
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

And that, being a quote of God's, seems to indicate that He IS capable of evil. His own words attest to it.

Jer 42:6
Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.

That passage indicates that it was a common belief that God could act either in 'good' or in 'evil'. The author could have used other words in the place of 'evil' but chose to use the word 'evil'. And that is not the only place where it is evident that God is fully capable of evil:

La 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

So, if evil indicates 'intent' as OAG would have us believe - and I do not disagree (it is as good an explanation of the term as any) then it seems that God is capable of that intent also. Else that - or the Bible has recorded His words falsley.

Mic 1:12
For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.

So, it seems that, according to the Word of God - evil can come as easily from the LORD as it can from SATAN.

So, is there a further distinction between "good" evil and "bad" evil? Or is evil just evil?

[arod]

If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

Because without it we could not develop virtue.

[arod]

OK, good, we have a discussion going and some very interesting ideas are being brought up.

I'm not being critical, OAG, but there is something that doesn't make sense about your answer.

In the beginning (it is taught in the Christian faith), there was God, and God was alone, and He created all things. If God did not create evil, who did? How did it come to existence? If there is an evil being responsible for evil and God did not create it then it must have always existed (just like God) so essentially there are 2 Gods - one evil and one good. So therefore God didn't create all things (at least not evil) which only makes Him partially God-like, who isn't as all powerful as claimed.

Evil is not a creation, but an uncreation, a twisting of that which is good - which is perhaps why evil so often resembles good.

[LanceALott]

Arod: Because without it we could not develop virtue.


LaL: So shut up, go forth, and start developing some virtue.

OK, good, we have a discussion going and some very interesting ideas are being brought up.

I'm not being critical, OAG, but there is something that doesn't make sense about your answer.

I was wondering who would be the first to go there and I'm glad it was you, Kathleen, because I think you more than most will see the logic in my answer.

In the beginning (it is taught in the Christian faith), there was God, and God was alone, and He created all things. If God did not create evil, who did?

Noone created evil. What God created was free will. God gave all of His creatures free will. Satan and a great many angels, archangels and whatever other beings preceeded human creation chose to rebel against God. The very rejection of good then became a choice for evil with no chance of turning back. Therefor evil is merely the rejection of good. It did not need to be created it only needed to be chosen. In other words the potential for it existed once a being was given free will to reject good.

Now before you go and criticize the idea of free will as being the dumbest thing ever done because of the ensuing evil I need you to consider, as Bad has apparently not done, what sort of creatures God might create if they did not possess free will.

It's not just fundamentalists, it is all christians. The Catholics have the concept of original sin (basically saying we are born bad). Most Protestant sects retained the practice of baptism - again an admission of human imperfection, that there is something wrong with us that has to be fixed.


Original sin is not some sort of utimate judgement that human beings are born bad. It simply acknowledges the need for redemption. There is a breech in our relationship with God. He is perfect and we are not. In order to be acceptable to God we must be perfect as He is. There is only one way that this can be accomplished and God accomplished it 2000 years ago.

Good question. And since He does not eliminate it - I would hazard a guess that it is because if evil exists - it is a part of God. Would He eliminate a part of Himself?

Evil continues to exist because it serves God's purpose. The only way to eliminate evil would be to eliminate all creatures in which it resides and that would be all of us. God would have to undo creation.

Outside of the Bible - there is really no acceptable basis for learning about the Christian God, so I would like to present a few scriptures from that book.

Boy did I call THIS one or what? 8)

That passage alludes to the fact that God, indeed, can commit evil. You will note that they could have used a word such as 'wrath' or 'vengeance' - but the word 'evil' is the one that occures.

Wrong. It tells us that God can PERmit evil.

Once again, it seems apparent that evil is an act the LORD is capable of.

Once again it is only apparent that evil exists and that it can serve God's purposes to allow it.

And that, being a quote of God's, seems to indicate that He IS capable of evil. His own words attest to it.

Once again God is not the author of the evil but has the authority to allow or prevent it. For His own purposes He is allowing evil to occur in each of these circumstances. This does not make God in any way evil. the author of evil nor the ambassador of evil. It simply makes Him God.

That passage indicates that it was a common belief that God could act either in 'good' or in 'evil'. The author could have used other words in the place of 'evil' but chose to use the word 'evil'. And that is not the only place where it is evident that God is fully capable of evil:

The emphasis here is not on the good nor evil of the commands of God but on obedience to them. God's people fully understood that their perception of the rightness or wrongness of God's commands didn't mean squat.

What you are looking at here is the HUMAN perspective on what happens to them. When they were attacked by invading armies it was a great evil visited upon them. Their perception that the Lord allowed the army to attack them meant that the evil was permitted by or came from God. The Bible would often describe how God's anger caused Him to send a great army upon the Isrealites. Was it evil for God to do that? Is it evil for a parent to discipline a child? From the perception of the Isrealites did an evil thing happen to them? Of course.

As I predicted, you are taking Biblical references, out of context I might add, and attempting to hold the actions of God up to human perceptions of what is good and what is evil. Humans perceive tragedy and death as evil events. The events themselves contain no evil. They occur because of life. They are inevitable. If God decides that my 102 year old great aunt should live another week of her existence in misery and boredom with only occasional visits from relatives for comfort is that evil? If God decides her time is up and, in effect, kills her tomorrow is THAT evil?

I'll say it again. God cannot be in any way evil and remain God. His actions cannot be evil and remain God. If you perceive evil in God's actions there is a flaw in your perceptions not in the concept of God being pure good.

Arod: Because without it we could not develop virtue.


LaL: So shut up, go forth, and start developing some virtue.


Don't hold your breath.

[SENOR DON GATO]

OAG,

You say that the scriptures are taken 'out of context' and yet if they are read within the context of the passages they are even more convincing - not less - that God is capable of evil. Let's look one more time at this one:

Jer, 32:42
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

He does not say "allow" or "permit" as you suggest but He says "I have brought". So to determine whether or not he actually brought this evil or simply allowed it we can look back a couple of verses,

Jer, 32:26
Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,
32:27
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?


God makes it clear that he "intends" to be the one doing the acts. Showing that He has the power to do them. He then goes on to tell how they were driven out, etc. The words 'evil' and 'revenge' are different in the Hebrew language. They mean different things.

And a couple of verses in between He again makes it clear that He was the one who punished them,

Jer, 32:37
Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

There is nothing in that entire chapter that denies that God , Himself, caused the grief and suffering. The word 'evil' is used - not punishment or vengeance - EVIL.

The emphasis here is not on the good nor evil of the commands of God but on obedience to them. God's people fully understood that their perception of the rightness or wrongness of God's commands didn't mean squat.

What you are looking at here is the HUMAN perspective on what happens to them. When they were attacked by invading armies it was a great evil visited upon them. Their perception that the Lord allowed the army to attack them meant that the evil was permitted by or came from God. The Bible would often describe how God's anger caused Him to send a great army upon the Isrealites. Was it evil for God to do that? Is it evil for a parent to discipline a child? From the perception of the Isrealites did an evil thing happen to them? Of course.

But you are confusing the two. Yes, there are many passages that tell of God sending a plague or army, or other punishment for wrongdoers. And it is then spoken of thusly, but in certain passage (such as the one above) it is made perfectly clear that not only was the act a punishment - it was also evil. And it was an act of God.

As I predicted, you are taking Biblical references, out of context I might add, and attempting to hold the actions of God up to human perceptions of what is good and what is evil. Humans perceive tragedy and death as evil events. The events themselves contain no evil. They occur because of life. They are inevitable. If God decides that my 102 year old great aunt should live another week of her existence in misery and boredom with only occasional visits from relatives for comfort is that evil? If God decides her time is up and, in effect, kills her tomorrow is THAT evil?

This has nothing to do with human perception of good and evil - this has to do with the validity of God's Word. As you read the OT you will see that there were a number of words that could have been employed - but God used the word "evil". It does not matter what I believe evil is - nor what you believe it is. If God's word is to be trusted - then He is capable of - and has caused - evil. The Bible (not me) is very specific on that.

I'll say it again. God cannot be in any way evil and remain God. His actions cannot be evil and remain God. If you perceive evil in God's actions there is a flaw in your perceptions not in the concept of God being pure good.

And where is the biblical documentation for that assumption? I think what we have here is a clear-cut case of the Bible not fitting comfortably within the doctrine of a modern church. Instead of forming one's religion around the Bible - we have churches picking and choosing what they like from the Bible and attempting to explain away the passages they do not like - or those that do not fit. I suppose that is okay. To each his own. But anyone who sits down and really studies the passages I posted will come to the conclusion that not only was God responsible for the acts - but He, Himself, termed them as 'evil'.

That is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable as it does not agree with what they have convinced themselves is true about God.

Of course - there is always the possibility that God did not tell the truth in those situations - or that the scribe falsified the Word of God.

There is nowhere in the Bible (that I am aware of) that says just because an act is justified means it can not be 'evil'.

[truelies]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.


I think "charging" is the wrong word. Perhaps the definition of evil has been misconstrued throughout the years of doctrinal innundation of the Churches?

If God is capable of evil (according to the Bible, He is) then evil can hardly be restricted to rebellion against Him. It must encompass something more.

[truelies]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.


I think "charging" is the wrong word. Perhaps the definition of evil has been misconstrued throughout the years of doctrinal innundation of the Churches?

If God is capable of evil (according to the Bible, He is) then evil can hardly be restricted to rebellion against Him. It must encompass something more.


Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

above Quoted earlier by SDG

Here I think the usage of the word EVIL does not imply (for a certainty) a moral dimension. The more correct usage I believe would be the word BAD. If someone deliberately shoots me in the course of robbing me EVIL (an act with moral content) has happened. If my car runs off the road in an ice storm something BAD (no moral content) has happened. That God allows either thing to happen to me (IMHO for my Spirtual good BTW) cannot be counted as EVIL.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.


I think "charging" is the wrong word. Perhaps the definition of evil has been misconstrued throughout the years of doctrinal innundation of the Churches?

If God is capable of evil (according to the Bible, He is) then evil can hardly be restricted to rebellion against Him. It must encompass something more.


Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

above Quoted earlier by SDG

Here I think the usage of the word EVIL does not imply (for a certainty) a moral dimension. The more correct usage I believe would be the word BAD. If someone deliberately shoots me in the course of robbing me EVIL (an act with moral content) has happened. If my car runs off the road in an ice storm something BAD (no moral content) has happened. That God allows either thing to happen to me (IMHO for my Spirtual good BTW) cannot be counted as EVIL.


Agreed. but the passage says the Lord will "bring upon you". And it uses the term 'evil'. The word "wrath" would have been more acceptable in its place - but that is not the word that appears in the scripture.

Now, if it said that the Lord would "allow" it to be brought upon you - or if it was described as "punishment' and not 'evil" - then it would have an entirely different meaning. IMO

[truelies]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.


I think "charging" is the wrong word. Perhaps the definition of evil has been misconstrued throughout the years of doctrinal innundation of the Churches?

If God is capable of evil (according to the Bible, He is) then evil can hardly be restricted to rebellion against Him. It must encompass something more.


Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

above Quoted earlier by SDG

Here I think the usage of the word EVIL does not imply (for a certainty) a moral dimension. The more correct usage I believe would be the word BAD. If someone deliberately shoots me in the course of robbing me EVIL (an act with moral content) has happened. If my car runs off the road in an ice storm something BAD (no moral content) has happened. That God allows either thing to happen to me (IMHO for my Spirtual good BTW) cannot be counted as EVIL.


Agreed. but the passage says the Lord will "bring upon you". And it uses the term 'evil'. The word "wrath" would have been more acceptable in its place - but that is not the word that appears in the scripture.

Now, if it said that the Lord would "allow" it to be brought upon you - or if it was described as "punishment' and not 'evil" - then it would have an entirely different meaning. IMO


But in the context of the verses which immediately follow the EVIL is described as a PUNISHMENT!!!!!!!

[SENOR DON GATO]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.


I think "charging" is the wrong word. Perhaps the definition of evil has been misconstrued throughout the years of doctrinal innundation of the Churches?

If God is capable of evil (according to the Bible, He is) then evil can hardly be restricted to rebellion against Him. It must encompass something more.


Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

above Quoted earlier by SDG

Here I think the usage of the word EVIL does not imply (for a certainty) a moral dimension. The more correct usage I believe would be the word BAD. If someone deliberately shoots me in the course of robbing me EVIL (an act with moral content) has happened. If my car runs off the road in an ice storm something BAD (no moral content) has happened. That God allows either thing to happen to me (IMHO for my Spirtual good BTW) cannot be counted as EVIL.


Agreed. but the passage says the Lord will "bring upon you". And it uses the term 'evil'. The word "wrath" would have been more acceptable in its place - but that is not the word that appears in the scripture.

Now, if it said that the Lord would "allow" it to be brought upon you - or if it was described as "punishment' and not 'evil" - then it would have an entirely different meaning. IMO


But in the context of the verses which immediately follow the EVIL is described as a PUNISHMENT!!!!!!!


Granted. But who is to say that it cannot be both?

[truelies]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.


I think "charging" is the wrong word. Perhaps the definition of evil has been misconstrued throughout the years of doctrinal innundation of the Churches?

If God is capable of evil (according to the Bible, He is) then evil can hardly be restricted to rebellion against Him. It must encompass something more.


Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

above Quoted earlier by SDG

Here I think the usage of the word EVIL does not imply (for a certainty) a moral dimension. The more correct usage I believe would be the word BAD. If someone deliberately shoots me in the course of robbing me EVIL (an act with moral content) has happened. If my car runs off the road in an ice storm something BAD (no moral content) has happened. That God allows either thing to happen to me (IMHO for my Spirtual good BTW) cannot be counted as EVIL.


Agreed. but the passage says the Lord will "bring upon you". And it uses the term 'evil'. The word "wrath" would have been more acceptable in its place - but that is not the word that appears in the scripture.

Now, if it said that the Lord would "allow" it to be brought upon you - or if it was described as "punishment' and not 'evil" - then it would have an entirely different meaning. IMO


But in the context of the verses which immediately follow the EVIL is described as a PUNISHMENT!!!!!!!


Granted. But who is to say that it cannot be both?



To be EVIL a PUNISHMENT would have to be somehow unfair or unjust. In this case we are talking a deserved PUNISHMENT for Covenant breaking. IMHO :)

[SENOR DON GATO]

Given that evil or wickedness are actions of rebellion against God, it is hard to see how He can be charged with evil.


I think "charging" is the wrong word. Perhaps the definition of evil has been misconstrued throughout the years of doctrinal innundation of the Churches?

If God is capable of evil (according to the Bible, He is) then evil can hardly be restricted to rebellion against Him. It must encompass something more.


Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

above Quoted earlier by SDG

Here I think the usage of the word EVIL does not imply (for a certainty) a moral dimension. The more correct usage I believe would be the word BAD. If someone deliberately shoots me in the course of robbing me EVIL (an act with moral content) has happened. If my car runs off the road in an ice storm something BAD (no moral content) has happened. That God allows either thing to happen to me (IMHO for my Spirtual good BTW) cannot be counted as EVIL.


Agreed. but the passage says the Lord will "bring upon you". And it uses the term 'evil'. The word "wrath" would have been more acceptable in its place - but that is not the word that appears in the scripture.

Now, if it said that the Lord would "allow" it to be brought upon you - or if it was described as "punishment' and not 'evil" - then it would have an entirely different meaning. IMO


But in the context of the verses which immediately follow the EVIL is described as a PUNISHMENT!!!!!!!


Granted. But who is to say that it cannot be both?



To be EVIL a PUNISHMENT would have to be somehow unfair or unjust. In this case we are talking a deserved PUNISHMENT for Covenant breaking. IMHO :)


But the Bible calls it "evil". There must be a reason for that. Do we dismiss the passage as an error? BTW - I posted several passages on pg three of this thread.

[ilovelucy]

As one who has fought a few personal demons over the years, I would say that evil comes in all shapes and sizes of packages--some of the more grotesque variety, some trimmed in beautiful and enticing ribbons and bows.....

That which separates us from God is a small evil and we, as humans are so vulnerable.....There are the super-duper sized ones as well which can down whole civilizations like locusts upon the fields overnight...Those are too obvious to mention....They are based on power and greed and are so very destructive....

I doubt if there are very many of us who would care to openly court evil, but when we open ourselves to that which is evil, because there is an enticement and a seduction of our better selves which is somewhat difficult to resist, then we should also be aware that at some point, the evil impulse can change us from our our best spiritual essence to that which suits a wholely different purpose--ultimately, such evil can destroy even the best and wisest among us....

Keep your hearts and minds with the love and the spirit of that which is good, as much as possible....

lucy

(I am　also trying to follow my own advice--quite difficult sometimes...:))

[buzaw]

I think the logic is.. If you consider God to be evil then it is wise to worship him to avoid him visiting evil on YOU !

The most EVIL thing a supposed deity has ever done is to wipe out the entire human animal and plant population… the God of the Bible did that with the exception of a few individuals.

That is PURE EVIL !


So in view of your opinion on this, Aussie, it would be evil of you to destroy moles, gophers and ant hills in/on your lawn. This is God's universe. He decides what kind of creatures are to exist in it and what kind"s gotta go. His preflood creatures on planet earth got so disobediently corrupt that the stench of planet earth became unbearable in his nostrils. He simply erradicated the whole immoral mess and started over. He's agonna do it again by and by ...........by fire, but not before he makes his millenial statement to the universe via the kingdom of Jesus on earth to show how to do it right.

We see things here on tiny planet earth from a human perspective. We leave the Creator to call the shots, things go well. Otherwise, look out!! He'll eventually do you in. :o

[SENOR DON GATO]

[quote author=ilovelucy
Keep your hearts and minds with the love and the spirit of that which is good, as much as possible....

lucy

(I am　also trying to follow my own advice--quite difficult sometimes...:))
[/quote]

That is a very nice sentiment, lucy. We should all be better off if we were to follow it. :)

[SENOR DON GATO]

I think the logic is.. If you consider God to be evil then it is wise to worship him to avoid him visiting evil on YOU !

The most EVIL thing a supposed deity has ever done is to wipe out the entire human animal and plant population… the God of the Bible did that with the exception of a few individuals.

That is PURE EVIL !


So in view of your opinion on this, Aussie, it would be evil of you to destroy moles, gophers and ant hills in/on your lawn. This is God's universe. He decides what kind of creatures are to exist in it and what kind"s gotta go. His preflood creatures on planet earth got so disobediently corrupt that the stench of planet earth became unbearable in his nostrils. He simply erradicated the whole immoral mess and started over. He's agonna do it again by and by ...........by fire, but not before he makes his millenial statement to the universe via the kingdom of Jesus on earth to show how to do it right.

We see things here on tiny planet earth from a human perspective. We leave the Creator to call the shots, things go well. Otherwise, look out!! He'll eventually do you in. :o


That's right! God can do anything. He can be evil if he wants to. And sometimes he DOES want to. That doesnt make him EVIL - just that he might like to do a little evil now and again.

[Lazarus]

If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?


Seriously? Only God is good. Everyone else is evil. So, if you want all evil eliminated, then everything BUT God would have to be eliminated (that includes you and me both). Thank God that He is patient and more interested in showing mercy toward us than He is in demanding and exacting justice of us. :)

[Lazarus]

badnews: If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

LaL: Well, it's like this: Good and Evil canot be seperated. There is some good in all evil and some evil in all good. They are like the opposite sides of the same coin, and what you see good/evil depends upon where you are looking from. What looks good to some, is seen as pure evil by others.

Since Lararus, in his signature, already recognizes me as God after I raised him from the dead,, I might as well tell you this truth: You cannot have one without the other.

And while I'm at it, you should know the Children of Israel really are my Chosen People, but what I did not tell Abraham when I gave him that good news was the evil on the other side of the coin; and that is they are not my only Chosen People. You see, my Master Race is the whole damn Human Race, and I have no Favorite Children. In My eyes you are all equal: the good, the bad, and the ugly.


There is NO evil in God. ::)

[ilovelucy]

Laz.

I agree. There was no evil in God as orginally intended perhaps, but God must have given a certain degree of autonomy and free spirit to be whatever, to his angels--

Hence Satan,　who felt he, too, could be as powerful as God, and hence the fall of man from grace....

no?

So, in essence, the lust for Godlike power was the root of evil...

imsomewhatnaiveopinion.....

lucy

[SENOR DON GATO]

badnews: If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

LaL: Well, it's like this: Good and Evil canot be seperated. There is some good in all evil and some evil in all good. They are like the opposite sides of the same coin, and what you see good/evil depends upon where you are looking from. What looks good to some, is seen as pure evil by others.

Since Lararus, in his signature, already recognizes me as God after I raised him from the dead,, I might as well tell you this truth: You cannot have one without the other.

And while I'm at it, you should know the Children of Israel really are my Chosen People, but what I did not tell Abraham when I gave him that good news was the evil on the other side of the coin; and that is they are not my only Chosen People. You see, my Master Race is the whole damn Human Race, and I have no Favorite Children. In My eyes you are all equal: the good, the bad, and the ugly.


There is NO evil in God. ::)


Well, the BIBLE says there is - so there. :P

[buzaw]

What you are looking at here is the HUMAN perspective on what happens to them. When they were attacked by invading armies it was a great evil visited upon them. Their perception that the Lord allowed the army to attack them meant that the evil was permitted by or came from God. The Bible would often describe how God's anger caused Him to send a great army upon the Isrealites. Was it evil for God to do that? Is it evil for a parent to discipline a child? From the perception of the Isrealites did an evil thing happen to them? Of course.


Exactly. When I destroy the anthill in my yard, in the perspective of the ant, I have done evil. They will attack me, bite me and hate me for what I've done. Yes, I have done great evil TO THE ANTS. If I could talk to them I might say, "Ive brought this evil upon you because it's my yard and I decide who and what gets into it. Do your ant hill in the woods and I'll leave you alone."

When King Ahab of the northern tribes of Israel was inquiring of his paganistic prophets as to whether Jehovah would deliver him in battle with the Assyrians, God sent an evil spirit to falsely assure him that he should go and fight for Jehovah would deliver him. King Jehosaphat from the kingdom of Judah decided to go with evil king Ahab to fight the Assyrians, but this king wanted a true prophet of Jehovah to give the assurance. Well, Mechaiah was chosen and after inquiring to Jehovah, he went to them and said God had sent an evil spirit to do this and they should not go up to battle. After a fuss among the pagan prophets and Mechaiah, they decided to go up to battle. Ahab concealed himself after learning the Assyrians were only going after him, Jehoshaphat nearly got killed because they thought he was Ahab and a chance shot by an Assyrian did in evil King Ahab.

I've said the above to say this: God uses evil to accomplish his purposes. He used pagan king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon to do in Jerusalem and enslave the Israelites because they were living in disobedience to God.

According to some highly criticized statements by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, maybe, they said, maybe, 9/ll was a spiritual wake up call for America and that may be why God ALLOWED 9/ll. In light of what we've learned in this thread, they may have had a valid point.

[BrandonL]

His preflood creatures on planet earth got so disobediently corrupt that the stench of planet earth became unbearable in his nostrils.
God has nostrils? What do you base that on?

If there is evil in God than there must be good in Satan. If this is true than what it is, is a numbers game and none of it is true. Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you will die.

[SENOR DON GATO]

I've said the above to say this: God uses evil to accomplish his purposes. He used pagan king Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon to do in Jerusalem and enslave the Israelites because they were living in disobedience to God.

According to some highly criticized statements by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, maybe, they said, maybe, 9/ll was a spiritual wake up call for America and that may be why God ALLOWED 9/ll. In light of what we've learned in this thread, they may have had a valid point.




Finally! Someone who admits that the Bible says that God can do evil. Everyone else seems to want to sanitize the Bible for their own comfort.

Now, as far as the God using evil to attack us (through the guise of the hijackers) on 9-11 - well - I suppose if that is true we are wrong in attacking anyone in the ME in retaliation. After all if God and His evil are responsible - then the hijackers were simply instruments of his choosing. But how do we bomb God? That needs to be contemplated a bit more.

[arod]

But the Bible calls it "evil". There must be a reason for that. Do we dismiss the passage as an error? BTW - I posted several passages on pg three of this thread.

If I'm a thief and you spot me casing your house, I'll think it evil when the police catch me - but you won't. ;)

[SENOR DON GATO]

His preflood creatures on planet earth got so disobediently corrupt that the stench of planet earth became unbearable in his nostrils.
God has nostrils? What do you base that on?


Well, God has a body - so of course, he has nostrils.

There is no God.

[buzaw]

My personal belief is that humans are NOT inherently evil. In fact, as we are created in the image of God, which is what I believe, we are inherently good. But that we have the potential for great many evils. We are creatures with free will, and we choose our inherent goodness or we can choose to embrace our evil potential.

I believe this because I believe that God loves each and every one of us, no mattter what we CHOOSE to do, and God could not LOVE evil.

I don't buy that man is "evil" in the way many fundamentalist Christians preach. I just don't.


Jeny, Solomon said a child left to himself will bring shame upon his mother. He's right. Children left to themselves get in trouble, learn bad habits, steal, lie, cheat and often kill. Why is it they need to be trained? The only answer I can think of is that mankind is inherantly evil and good must be trained into us.

[SENOR DON GATO]

But the Bible calls it "evil". There must be a reason for that. Do we dismiss the passage as an error? BTW - I posted several passages on pg three of this thread.

If I'm a thief and you spot me casing your house, I'll think it evil when the police catch me - but you won't. ;)


So 'evil' is in the mind of the beholder?

My personal belief is that humans are NOT inherently evil. In fact, as we are created in the image of God, which is what I believe, we are inherently good. But that we have the potential for great many evils. We are creatures with free will, and we choose our inherent goodness or we can choose to embrace our evil potential.

I believe this because I believe that God loves each and every one of us, no mattter what we CHOOSE to do, and God could not LOVE evil.

I don't buy that man is "evil" in the way many fundamentalist Christians preach. I just don't.


Jeny, Solomon said a child left to himself will bring shame upon his mother. He's right. Children left to themselves get in trouble, learn bad habits, steal, lie, cheat and often kill. Why is it they need to be trained? The only answer I can think of is that mankind is inherantly evil and good must be trained into us.



"Good must be trained into us"? You mean get hold of a child early and brainwash him or her in your religion before it grows up and thinks for itself. ::)

[Lazarus]

Laz.

I agree. There was no evil in God as orginally intended perhaps, but God must have given a certain degree of autonomy and free spirit to be whatever, to his angels--

Hence Satan,　who felt he, too, could be as powerful as God, and hence the fall of man from grace....

no?

So, in essence, the lust for Godlike power was the root of evil...

imsomewhatnaiveopinion.....

lucy


Lucy, you are quite correct in your assessment of the situation. Yet God remains evil-free.

[Lazarus]

badnews: If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

LaL: Well, it's like this: Good and Evil canot be seperated. There is some good in all evil and some evil in all good. They are like the opposite sides of the same coin, and what you see good/evil depends upon where you are looking from. What looks good to some, is seen as pure evil by others.

Since Lararus, in his signature, already recognizes me as God after I raised him from the dead,, I might as well tell you this truth: You cannot have one without the other.

And while I'm at it, you should know the Children of Israel really are my Chosen People, but what I did not tell Abraham when I gave him that good news was the evil on the other side of the coin; and that is they are not my only Chosen People. You see, my Master Race is the whole damn Human Race, and I have no Favorite Children. In My eyes you are all equal: the good, the bad, and the ugly.


There is NO evil in God. ::)


Well, the BIBLE says there is - so there. :P


Where does the Bible say that there is evil IN God? Please be specific.

[arod]

[So 'evil' is in the mind of the beholder?


At the level of human perception, it is. A good person sees evil as evil, and a bad person sees good as evil.

[SENOR DON GATO]

badnews: If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

LaL: Well, it's like this: Good and Evil canot be seperated. There is some good in all evil and some evil in all good. They are like the opposite sides of the same coin, and what you see good/evil depends upon where you are looking from. What looks good to some, is seen as pure evil by others.

Since Lararus, in his signature, already recognizes me as God after I raised him from the dead,, I might as well tell you this truth: You cannot have one without the other.

And while I'm at it, you should know the Children of Israel really are my Chosen People, but what I did not tell Abraham when I gave him that good news was the evil on the other side of the coin; and that is they are not my only Chosen People. You see, my Master Race is the whole damn Human Race, and I have no Favorite Children. In My eyes you are all equal: the good, the bad, and the ugly.


There is NO evil in God. ::)


Well, the BIBLE says there is - so there. :P


Where does the Bible say that there is evil IN God? Please be specific.


It says He DID evil. He committed evil. For that to happen - the ability to commit evil MUST be in Him. I posted some passages on page three of this thread.

[SENOR DON GATO]

[So 'evil' is in the mind of the beholder?


At the level of human perception, it is. A good person sees evil as evil, and a bad person sees good as evil.


Don't you mean "a bad person sees EVIL as GOOD?'

But now we are getting into either the act or the intent - and if it is true for one is it true always?

[Lazarus]

badnews: If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

LaL: Well, it's like this: Good and Evil canot be seperated. There is some good in all evil and some evil in all good. They are like the opposite sides of the same coin, and what you see good/evil depends upon where you are looking from. What looks good to some, is seen as pure evil by others.

Since Lararus, in his signature, already recognizes me as God after I raised him from the dead,, I might as well tell you this truth: You cannot have one without the other.

And while I'm at it, you should know the Children of Israel really are my Chosen People, but what I did not tell Abraham when I gave him that good news was the evil on the other side of the coin; and that is they are not my only Chosen People. You see, my Master Race is the whole damn Human Race, and I have no Favorite Children. In My eyes you are all equal: the good, the bad, and the ugly.


There is NO evil in God. ::)


Well, the BIBLE says there is - so there. :P


Where does the Bible say that there is evil IN God? Please be specific.


It says He DID evil. He committed evil. For that to happen - the ability to commit evil MUST be in Him. I posted some passages on page three of this thread.


So you claim. I was asking for the specific verse(s) that you are referring to. So far, I take it you have conceded that there is no evil in God, just that from some perspective some actions appeared evil? ::)

Allow me to review the thread, and I will get back to you. ;D

[SENOR DON GATO]

badnews: If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?

LaL: Well, it's like this: Good and Evil canot be seperated. There is some good in all evil and some evil in all good. They are like the opposite sides of the same coin, and what you see good/evil depends upon where you are looking from. What looks good to some, is seen as pure evil by others.

Since Lararus, in his signature, already recognizes me as God after I raised him from the dead,, I might as well tell you this truth: You cannot have one without the other.

And while I'm at it, you should know the Children of Israel really are my Chosen People, but what I did not tell Abraham when I gave him that good news was the evil on the other side of the coin; and that is they are not my only Chosen People. You see, my Master Race is the whole damn Human Race, and I have no Favorite Children. In My eyes you are all equal: the good, the bad, and the ugly.


There is NO evil in God. ::)


Well, the BIBLE says there is - so there. :P


Where does the Bible say that there is evil IN God? Please be specific.


It says He DID evil. He committed evil. For that to happen - the ability to commit evil MUST be in Him. I posted some passages on page three of this thread.


So you claim. I was asking for the specific verse(s) that you are referring to. So far, I take it you have conceded that there is no evil in God, just that from some perspective some actions appeared evil? ::)

Allow me to review the thread, and I will get back to you. ;D




I shall be waiting.

[Lazarus]

If God, the omnipotent one, hates evil so much, why doesn't He simply eliminate it?


Good question. And since He does not eliminate it - I would hazard a guess that it is because if evil exists - it is a part of God. Would He eliminate a part of Himself?

I know that some of the posters here have said that evil cannot be a part of God and that He cannot do any evil - and I think OAG is correct in assuming that it is 'intent' and not simply the act that determine 'evil'.

Outside of the Bible - there is really no acceptable basis for learning about the Christian God, so I would like to present a few scriptures from that book.

Jos 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

That passage alludes to the fact that God, indeed, can commit evil. You will note that they could have used a word such as 'wrath' or 'vengeance' - but the word 'evil' is the one that occures.


And then,

2Sa 17:14
And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

Once again, it seems apparent that evil is an act the LORD is capable of.

Jer 32:42
For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

And that, being a quote of God's, seems to indicate that He IS capable of evil. His own words attest to it.

Jer 42:6
Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.

That passage indicates that it was a common belief that God could act either in 'good' or in 'evil'. The author could have used other words in the place of 'evil' but chose to use the word 'evil'. And that is not the only place where it is evident that God is fully capable of evil:

La 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

So, if evil indicates 'intent' as OAG would have us believe - and I do not disagree (it is as good an explanation of the term as any) then it seems that God is capable of that intent also. Else that - or the Bible has recorded His words falsley.

Mic 1:12
For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.

So, it seems that, according to the Word of God - evil can come as easily from the LORD as it can from SATAN.

So, is there a further distinction between "good" evil and "bad" evil? Or is evil just evil?


Were these the verses you had in mind?

[arod]

[So 'evil' is in the mind of the beholder?


At the level of human perception, it is. A good person sees evil as evil, and a bad person sees good as evil.


Don't you mean "a bad person sees EVIL as GOOD?'

That too. They go together.

But now we are getting into either the act or the intent - and if it is true for one is it true always?


Rephrase that so I can understand it, if you will.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Yuppers.

[buzaw]

That's right! God can do anything. He can be evil if he wants to.

Your obsession with somehow portraying God as evil is apparent here. God's acts of "evil" to his creatures no more makes him evil than the exterminators who kill thousands of chickens, both the healthy and the sick, when too many of them get infected with disease.

[Lazarus]

Yuppers.


Are you familiar with the story of the Satanic rebellion?

[SENOR DON GATO]

[So 'evil' is in the mind of the beholder?


At the level of human perception, it is. A good person sees evil as evil, and a bad person sees good as evil.


Don't you mean "a bad person sees EVIL as GOOD?'

That too. They go together.

But now we are getting into either the act or the intent - and if it is true for one is it true always?


Rephrase that so I can understand it, if you will.


Okay, so at a human level evil is a perception subject to change but what is the gauge of it then? Can humans not determine it, ever? Can something that appears evil really be good? And vice-versa? Or is there a determinging factor? Such as either the act itself - or the intent? Take killing another, for instance, whether we kill someone accidently with a knife or we stab them purposefully - the result is the same - they are dead. So can evil be determined by the act? Or by intent? If evil is determined by the 'intent' to do harm - then is that intent valid for all entities?

Such as killing for revenge. Is that evil? And if the 'vengeful' intent makes it evil - is that same vengeful intent when used by God to kill - as the bible speaks of also evil?

[SENOR DON GATO]

That's right! God can do anything. He can be evil if he wants to.

Your obsession with somehow portraying God as evil is apparent here. God's acts of "evil" to his creatures no more makes him evil than the exterminators who kill thousands of chickens, both the healthy and the sick, when too many of them get infected with disease.




I didn't say He was evil - only that he could DO evil. I thought you agreed with that.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Yuppers.


Are you familiar with the story of the Satanic rebellion?


Very much so, yes.

God's acts of "evil" to his creatures no more makes him evil than the exterminators who kill thousands of chickens, both the healthy and the sick, when too many of them get infected with disease.




Are you comparing God to man...or are you comparing man to chickens? In either case, I am offended.

[ilovelucy]

Well, why drown a perfectly good chicken....

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[jeny]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


Does it really matter? ;D

[SENOR DON GATO]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


The rooster. And then the chicken was made from a rooster rib - but the rooster and chicken had no feathers until the chicken gave the rooster some delicious grain from a special feed bowl and then the big Rooster in the Sky made them wear feather forever and then the chicken laid an egg and then another - but one egg began to roll and rolled right into the other egg, knocking it right off the laying table and the Big Rooster in the Sky (BRS) rolled the egg over to the other side of the laying table where it hatched and met another chick and they made more eggs that often pissed off the BRS and he threw them around and broke them and fried and scrambled them, etc.

So I guess the question is moot since the chicken had no feathers.

[arod]

Okay, so at a human level evil is a perception subject to change but what is the gauge of it then?

Conscience.

Can humans not determine it, ever?

No.

Can something that appears evil really be good? And vice-versa? Or is there a determinging factor? Such as either the act itself - or the intent?

The intent, in my view, would be the determining factor.

Take killing another, for instance, whether we kill someone accidently with a knife or we stab them purposefully - the result is the same - they are dead. So can evil be determined by the act? Or by intent? If evil is determined by the 'intent' to do harm - then is that intent valid for all entities?

:D

To judge the intent of the Creator is foolish. If there is evil in Him, He's a liar, and the father of lies - i.e., the devil.

Let me also point out that the intent to do harm is not the same as the intent to do evil, if the harm is done to evil men. Presumably, God would not make a mistake in that regard. A man acting in God's name had BETTER not make a mistake in that regard.

Such as killing for revenge. Is that evil?

For humans, yes. However, I would not say that killing the rapist of your daughter is necessarily a revenge killing.

And if the 'vengeful' intent makes it evil - is that same vengeful intent when used by God to kill - as the bible speaks of also evil?

Yes. "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord; I will repay". That's because He knows what hatred is for. Of ourselves, we don't. Mostly, we glory in the conquering of our opponent, feeling a sense of superiority akin, I believe, to what satan felt when he made Adam fall.[/quote]

[LanceALott]

Lazarus: So, if you want all evil eliminated, then everything BUT God would have to be eliminated (that includes you and me both). "

LaL: Okay, let's start with you.

[Lazarus]

Jos 23:15:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jos&chapter=23&verse=15&version=kjv

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/strongs.pl?book=Jos&chapter=23&verse=15&strongs=07 451


"Evil" has many meanings and not all of them have a moral or ethical component. In context, it appears to me "calamity" and does not seem to posess a moral component.

Next...


2 Sa 17:14

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=2Sa&chapter=17&verse=14&version=kjv


Again, it appears to be the same root Hebrew word, "ra ' ". So again, 'calamity'--with out the moral component. Never mind the word "might" in that verse!? Next...

Jer 32:42

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jer&chapter=32&verse=42&version=kjv

Here, the verse is making a comparison, not speaking in absolutes. Again, it is the same Hebrew word and it is not clear that there is a moral or ethical component to it as used. Likely that it is not the case... Next...

Jer 42:6:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jer&chapter=42&verse=6&version=kjv

Again, here it was someone else speaking so it seems a bit too hypothetical. Even so, it is the same Hebrew word again. Next...

La 3:38:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Lam&chapter=3&verse=38&version=kjv

Here the meaning is ambiguous. " 'not evil' and 'good' " or "not 'evil and good'". Consequently, it can be interpreted to mean that only non-evil and good things come from the mouth of God. Same word, "ra ' ". Next...

Mic 1:12:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Mic&chapter=1&verse=12&version=kjv

Same Hebrew word, "ra ' " again. This word can hold many meanings and it has not been demonstrated that a person is compelled to understand the word as a moral or ethical evil, rather than just that bad things were happeneing. Next?

Seems that there is no more material to cover. It is not convincing or conclusive to say that God did morally evil things based upon those verses cited from the Bible.

[Lazarus]

Lazarus: So, if you want all evil eliminated, then everything BUT God would have to be eliminated (that includes you and me both). "

LaL: Okay, let's start with you.


Is that a threat? ::)

[truelies]

My personal belief is that humans are NOT inherently evil. In fact, as we are created in the image of God, which is what I believe, we are inherently good. But that we have the potential for great many evils. We are creatures with free will, and we choose our inherent goodness or we can choose to embrace our evil potential.

I believe this because I believe that God loves each and every one of us, no mattter what we CHOOSE to do, and God could not LOVE evil.

I don't buy that man is "evil" in the way many fundamentalist Christians preach. I just don't.


Up until my oldest daughter was about four I held to the notion that children are born if not inherently good then at least with a clean slate. Then I learned that little kids spontaeneously become skilled Liars if not carefully trained to shun the behavior. Lying is pretty much the seed of all wickedness and it comes NATURALLY to children as a means of getting what they want and avoiding what they don't want (like chastisement for knocking the crap out of their younger sib for no particular reason) Can you picture the destruction that an angry two year old could wreck if they had the size & strength of an adult? Their anger comes NATURALLY and has no governing limits until those are taught to the child by adults. There is not even one instance of a group of children abandoned to their own devises who became a pack of 'Mother Teresas' , always to a greater or lesse degree the scenario plays out as 'the Lord of the Flys'.

In your own life do you always do the thing you KNOW to be good and right with hardly a care or hint of struggle or do YOU have to work at it? Conversely is there ever a struggle inside yourself to NOT do things which you KNOW to be wrong?????

It is hard work to be good. Evil comes easy. Could it be because that is our NATURAL bend?

[Lazarus]

All people are conceived innocent, free, and equal.

;D

[buzaw]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


The chicken. Now here's one for you. Which came first, the plant or the seed?

[BrandonL]

The chicken. Now here's one for you. Which came first, the plant or the seed?

The seed.

[buzaw]

All people are conceived innocent, free, and equal.

;D


1. Biblically speaking, all are conceived in sin. Psalms 51:5
2. The majority of the worlds pupulation are not born free.
3. The more free a culture is the less equal the populace. Some rich. Some poor. Some intelligent. Some not. Some strong. Some weak.

[buzaw]

The chicken. Now here's one for you. Which came first, the plant or the seed?

The seed.
That's correct according to the text. Question 2: On what day did the seeds become plants and begin to produce fruit/produce?

[buzaw]

As for question 2, I must admit there is some ambiguity here as to whether the seed or the plant came forth first in day three. The given is that they were grown for the animals and birds to eat in days 5 and six. The ambiguous is whether the seeds of Chapter two were the first seeds of creation or the seeds of the garden which God planted for Adam and Eve to keep. The latter may well be the case.

[BrandonL]

That's correct according to the text. Question 2: On what day did the seeds become plants and begin to produce fruit/produce?


What plant? You can't answer that question unless you specify the species of plant. Tough to answer-considering those plants are extinct now.

[Lazarus]

All people are conceived innocent, free, and equal.

;D


1. Biblically speaking, all are conceived in sin. Psalms 51:5


Where do you read the word "all" in this verse....? ::)


Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


It sure sounds like a very personal statement or INSTANCE upon which you desire to perform the LOGICAL FALLACY of "generalizing upon an instance". ::) Now, if his mother was sinning when she conceived him, then it explains the verse, but it REALLY does not address the point I had made one little bit, now does it? As for when he was "shapen" and the circumstances of his development, well, sadly, we are all shapen by our environments--for good or for evil. But again, that is beside the point. If by citing this you mean to twist things such that you believe that human beings are created evil--in "sin"--then it explains much about your particular worldview, but it does not come close to addressing the statement that I made.


2. The majority of the worlds pupulation are not born free.


I did not make any statement about the circumstance of anyone's BIRTH. ::) Sadly, this criticism falls far short of hitting the statement that I made.


3. The more free a culture is the less equal the populace. Some rich. Some poor. Some intelligent. Some not. Some strong. Some weak.


Again, I was not discussing CULTURES but ZYGOTES. And AGAIN, I will reiterate, that "ALL human beings are CONCEIVED INNOCENT, FREE, and EQUAL."

Now, if you want the "Biblical proof" for my statement then that is what follows directly from 4 verses:

1) 1 Timothy 6.13 (Source of conception is God),

2) Matthew 19.17 (Innocence is a consequence of God's goodness),

3) Galatians 5:1 (Free by Christ's liberty), and

4) Romans 2:11 (Equal because God is not a respector of persons).

To suggest otherwise is to say that one of the above is false--and:

1) I can see your point if God is not the source of all life;

2) I can see your point if God is in any respect evil;

3) I can see your point if Christ did not set us free;

4) I can see your point if God shows favoritism to certain people over others;

BUT, because God is (or does) NONE of those things, I do not see your point at all--and that is what the scriptures I cited clearly show. :)

[buzaw]

[quote author=Lazarus link=board=4;threadid=877;start=105#22430
Where do you read the word "all" in this verse....? ::)

It is clearly implied by the context, imo, for there's noting to indicate David was a bastard. In those days adultery was a serious matter. Imo it is clearly referring to the kind of thing the apostle Paul said when he said in Adam all died, but in the second "Adam," Jesus, all are made alive.

Knowing what we know about the character of David, he certainly wasn't talking about his upbringing or lack of good parents.


Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.





2. The majority of the worlds pupulation are not born free.


I did not make any statement about the circumstance of anyone's BIRTH. ::) Sadly, this criticism falls far short of hitting the statement that I made.[/quote]

I guess you need to specify as to how you think all are free at birth, especially to those born in slavery and oppression.

You can pontificate all day about equality, but again how specifically, are all born equal??

[Lazarus]

[quote author=Lazarus link=board=4;threadid=877;start=105#22430
Where do you read the word "all" in this verse....? ::)


It is clearly implied by the context, imo, for there's noting to indicate David was a bastard.


''CLEARLY IMPLIED"? BWHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

::)


In those days adultery was a serious matter.


Don't confuse poetry for substance. ::)


Imo


Yes, that is all that it is, isn't it? ::)


...it is clearly referring to the kind of thing the apostle Paul said when he said in Adam all died, but in the second "Adam," Jesus, all are made alive.


Buzz, the verse MIGHT be referring to what you suggest it refers to. On the other hand, it MIGHT be referring to the price of tea in China. Then, again, it MIGHT not. You say that it is "clear." Well, to you, it may seem "clear" enough. However, a Psalm is basically the lyrics to a song--and must the lyrics to a song be literally true or related to anything else? I think not. Not that there is not some fine imagery and poetry even in the Psalms, but it is also entirely possible that it is simply a lyric with no basis in reality whatsoever. Do you believe everything you read in the lyrics of a song? ::)


Knowing what we know about the character of David, he certainly wasn't talking about his upbringing or lack of good parents.


And you are certain about that, right? You are willing to look back over the centuries to a man who was raised in an ancient land in a culture that is foreign to you and you are willing to superimpose YOUR thoughts upon his thoughts--especially after he had committed the SIN of adultery with Bathsheeba? I would imagine that David had a heavy heart indeed after having been confronted by Nathan the prophet. Yet, that does not make every lyric in the Psalm the literal truth. ::)


I guess you need to specify as to how you think all are free at birth,


What part of the word CONCEIVED do you have a problem understanding? Can you quote me where I used the term, "BIRTH"? ::)


... especially to those born in slavery and oppression.



Vary sad situation. Hoever, that was NOT an issue that I had in any way addressed my statements to--no matter how much you might WISH that I had. ::)



You can pontificate all day about equality, but again how specifically, are all born equal??


YOU CAN BE AN ABSOLUTE THICK-HEADED JACKASS ALL THE DAY LONG BUT I AM NOT GOING TO DEFEND YOUR CHARACTERIZATIONS OF MY STATEMENT,

"All human beings are CONCEIVED INNOCENT, FREE, and EQUAL"

AS A STATEMENT REGARDING THE CONDITIONS OF A PERSON'S "BIRTH". I MADE NO SUCH STATEMENT WITH RESPECT TO "BIRTH".

Now, Buzz, if you are so numb-skulled that you cannot understand the difference between BIRTH and CONCEPTION, then how are you ever going to understand the truth about anything? ::)[/quote]

He does not say "allow" or "permit" as you suggest but He says "I have brought". So to determine whether or not he actually brought this evil or simply allowed it we can look back a couple of verses,

Jer, 32:26
Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,
32:27
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?


God makes it clear that he "intends" to be the one doing the acts. Showing that He has the power to do them. He then goes on to tell how they were driven out, etc. The words 'evil' and 'revenge' are different in the Hebrew language. They mean different things.

And a couple of verses in between He again makes it clear that He was the one who punished them,

Jer, 32:37
Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

There is nothing in that entire chapter that denies that God , Himself, caused the grief and suffering. The word 'evil' is used - not punishment or vengeance - EVIL.

Yes. I understand that God caused the suffering but to what end? Was God's purpose in doing so evil? This sis the part that YOU don't get. YOU cannot see the end result of God's actions other than the immediate suffering or evil visited upon the people. From THEIR perspective what happens to them is evil and bad and a big, huge bummer.

What I meant by out of context was the greater context of what God does and why. Let me give you an example.

A guy is camping in the woods and a bear comes into his tent and mauls him to death. This evil that was visited upon him came from God. God decided this was the time and place for this guy to die and the bear was God's instrument. Some people would say God killed that man. I've already addressed THAT issue. But I digress. Now what you don't know about our hapless shmuck is that he had recently begun to touch his 10 year old daughter inappropriately and he was on the slippery slope to molesting her on a regular basis. Now the evil that was visited upon the little girl is that she has lost her father. However, the greater evil that would have been visited upon her for years to come has been averted.

YOU are judging God's actions evil when it is only the perception of the recipients that assign evil to His actions. It is the evil of death and destruction and suffering, all inescapable and normal parts of life. We assign evil to these things because they suck. Annanias lied and God struck him dead. Was that evil of God to do that? Annanias was going to die someday and God chose that day over one in the future. From God's point of view He has not acted with malice or any evil intention. He has simply chosen a time and place and means for someone's death.

What purpose does suffering serve? Is it a higher purpose or greater good or is it evil? One of the problems with your perspective on evil is that you don't know what the end result of such visitations of evil is going to be. Evil occurences may serve great purposes for the good of a great many people. The only being with a proper perspective on what the greater good is would be God.

But you are confusing the two. Yes, there are many passages that tell of God sending a plague or army, or other punishment for wrongdoers. And it is then spoken of thusly, but in certain passage (such as the one above) it is made perfectly clear that not only was the act a punishment - it was also evil. And it was an act of God.

The plagues and armies of locusts would always be perceived as evil. That is how they referred to the events. A bountiful harvest was a blessing and a drought was an evil. Their perspective that everything that ever happened was from God and by God meant that it was HE who brought them blessings or evil depending upon their obedience to Him.

This has nothing to do with human perception of good and evil - this has to do with the validity of God's Word. As you read the OT you will see that there were a number of words that could have been employed - but God used the word "evil". It does not matter what I believe evil is - nor what you believe it is. If God's word is to be trusted - then He is capable of - and has caused - evil. The Bible (not me) is very specific on that.

Once again it is merely YOUR interpretation that is very specific on that not the Bible. What is the Hebrew word employed there? Does it differ from the word used to reference other evils? As I doubt you are any sort of bilical scholar I am not inclined to give great validity to your argument that the Bible accredits God with evil. I find the Bible very specific in describing God as pure good, pure love, the Alpha and Omega, and the Almighty Creator. Your rendering of Him as something less is a well argued but well used attempt at skepticism. I am as certain that you will continue in your misperceptions as I am that I will continue to understand who and what God is. I have yet to see a skaptic open their eyes and accept the truth.

And where is the biblical documentation for that assumption? I think what we have here is a clear-cut case of the Bible not fitting comfortably within the doctrine of a modern church.

Which church would that be?

Instead of forming one's religion around the Bible - we have churches picking and choosing what they like from the Bible and attempting to explain away the passages they do not like - or those that do not fit.

Which churches and what does that have to do with you and I? Are you suggesting that I am merely spouting some sort of rhetoric that some church has brainwashed me with? Are you suggesting that you are debating with a church instead of an individual called OAG?

But anyone who sits down and really studies the passages I posted will come to the conclusion that not only was God responsible for the acts - but He, Himself, termed them as 'evil'.

I have really studied those passages as well as the rest of the Bible and my only conclusion is that your conclusion is misguided.

YOU are the one who chose passages to post and YOUR interpretation of what they mean. I have answered you on those passages.

That is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable as it does not agree with what they have convinced themselves is true about God.

Not at all. YOUR spin on Biblical passages do not affect my comfort level.

Of course - there is always the possibility that God did not tell the truth in those situations - or that the scribe falsified the Word of God.

Yes let's completely ignore the alternate possibility that YOU do not entirely comprehend what you've read or that you prefer a particular spin on what you've read.

There is nowhere in the Bible (that I am aware of) that says just because an act is justified means it can not be 'evil'.


There you have it. You used the word justifiable in a discussion of the actions of God. This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. To WHOM would God need to justify His actions hmmmm? To us? To mere mortals who can't even keep from killing each other in fits or rage? Does God need to make us all aware of the greater good that comes from His every action in order that we don't see them as evil? Should God lay out His entire plan in every detail so you can properly judge whether He is capable of evil or not?

As I had predicted you came through with the skeptical argument that you were leading up to. It was nicely done but erroneous. I like the passages you chose and the fact that they were from the OT. Those are the most fun to deal with because the OT God was more proactive with the the Isrealites than Jesus was. In a sense it is more interesting than what came later. Jesus only interacted with a small segment of the population even though that interaction was the most profound in history.

But the Bible calls it "evil". There must be a reason for that. Do we dismiss the passage as an error? BTW - I posted several passages on pg three of this thread.

If I'm a thief and you spot me casing your house, I'll think it evil when the police catch me - but you won't. ;)


So 'evil' is in the mind of the beholder?


For the most part it is. This is the case when it comes to humans because we are creatures of both good and evil. In the case of God and Satan, angels and demons there is a clear distinction. Each one is fully aware of what side they are on and what form, evil or good, their actions take. With humans there is not such a clear distinction.