View Full Version : Pain and Serendipity
Persephone
07-13-2004, 07:48 AM
As many of those who’ve been around these boards for a while know, I have rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia. A couple of years ago, I ditched my entire team of specialists and went with alternate routes of self-treatment and self-healing. This turned out to be one of the best things I’ve ever done. I’ve had great success, despite the rough patches, and I’ve saved my insurance company many thousands of dollars a year.
But despite my best efforts, I’m never complete “well.” I’m just a lot better than I used to be. I even go through long stretches when I feel “cured.” I manage to do pretty well all of the things I set out to do. And the down times are no worse than they were when I was being treated by the rheumatologist and his pals.
Lately, though, I have not felt so well. I’ve had a good bit of pain. I’ve had swelling and stiffness in my joints. I’ve had muscle spasms in my back and shoulders. General fatigue and aches all over. I’ve had difficulty keeping up with things I set out to do. I’ve felt overwhelmed by normal everyday problems.
Whenever this happens, I always have this feeling of guilt. I have beat this thing through will power before, and I should be able to again if only I were not so weak. And so on and so forth.
In other words, I’ve been feeling pretty sorry for myself.
Then yesterday I bought a yoga magazine. I just got it out this morning and starting looking through, hoping to find some inspiration to push my way through the pain and discouragement to do something that might help.
Strangely enough, there was an article about fibromyalgia in the magazine. It was written by one of those doctors who has both traditional medical training and alternative medical training. Since it was in the yoga book, and he is who he is, I expected it to say, “You can make this better if you just get off your lazy ass and do your yoga.”
But that wasn’t what he said at all. He thinks it’s a virus.
He says there’s nothing anyone can do to make it go away completely and the thing to do is to just get a strategy for coping with the down times.
That made me feel better. Somehow.
(and yes I know that you told me this years ago, asshole, but you aren’t a doctor, so there)
Sorry for the rambling, but thanks for listening anyway. :)
polaris
07-13-2004, 07:55 AM
Have you explored the possibility of food or environmental allergens that might be causing your problems, or at least some of them? Long ago I worked in a poorly ventilated pharmacy and after a couple of months I kept feeling worse and worse. When i found another job, the problem cleared up after a couple of weeks. My doctor thought it might have been mould spores, cleaning fluids, micro particles of drugs, who knows.
Persephone
07-13-2004, 07:57 AM
Have you explored the possibility of food or environmental allergens that might be causing your problems, or at least some of them? Long ago I worked in a poorly ventilated pharmacy and after a couple of months I kept feeling worse and worse. When i found another job, the problem cleared up after a couple of weeks. My doctor thought it might have been mould spores, cleaning fluids, micro particles of drugs, who knows.
I've tried all kinds of things. If there is an allergen at work, I've haven't been able to determine what it is.
I've had allergy tests. I have the normal dust mite and grass allergies. No known food allergies.
kathleen
07-13-2004, 07:58 AM
You are an intelligent, capable, independent woman with what appears to be plenty of family and friends who care about you.
Nevertheless, a bit of whining through the bad patches is understandable and can be therapeutic as well. It doesn't mean that you are weak and hopeless.
We're here for you.
My ear is open anytime you like.
Be well. Be happy. :)
Persephone
07-13-2004, 07:59 AM
You are an intelligent, capable, independent woman with what appears to be plenty of family and friends who care about you.
Nevertheless, a bit of whining through the bad patches is understandable and can be therapeutic as well. It doesn't mean that you are weak and hopeless.
We're here for you.
My ear is open anytime you like.
Be well. Be happy. :)
:)
Persephone
07-13-2004, 08:53 AM
I know this whole thing comes across as whiney, but I wasn’t really looking for people to feel sorry for me. I was just looking for a place to express my thought processes as I sorted them out for myself. I felt better after reading that article because it struck something in me that I had forgotten from my past experiences with this—
Determination to be strong is not always the thing that helps.
One person’s weakness is another person’s strength, and vice versa.
The thing about my life and my health is that stuff doesn’t happen to me in a linear fashion. When I hear people talk about exercising and building up to certain levels of strength, I know that is never going to happen to me. There are days when it is easy for me to walk eight miles. And then there are days when it takes more strength to walk half a mile. There is no apparent trigger for which day I get when. It all just comes in cycles.
I guess what I’m saying is that this article reminded me that it’s not always productive to fight the bad things that happen to us. And what I was thinking of as weakness in giving in could sometimes be my best strength. You can’t just lie down and take it until you die, but at the same time, there are days when letting yourself just accept that you’re down and you need rest and restoration more than determination is the best thing you can do for yourself.
I guess what I’m saying is that this article reminded me that it’s not always productive to fight the bad things that happen to us. And what I was thinking of as weakness in giving in could sometimes be my best strength. You can’t just lie down and take it until you die, but at the same time, there are days when letting yourself just accept that you’re down and you need rest and restoration more than determination is the best thing you can do for yourself.
:)
the bib
07-13-2004, 11:55 AM
Suth: I had no idea and I'm sorry for your struggle.
I guess what I’m saying is that this article reminded me that it’s not always productive to fight the bad things that happen to us. And what I was thinking of as weakness in giving in could sometimes be my best strength. You can’t just lie down and take it until you die, but at the same time, there are days when letting yourself just accept that you’re down and you need rest and restoration more than determination is the best thing you can do for yourself.
To my shame, I've enjoyed good health and have taken advantage .. smoking drinkling, working long hours, sleeping little and partying hard.
Your above formula is good advice for everyone, probably especially me.
Observer
07-13-2004, 01:21 PM
I know how you feel some days when I can bearly put my arms over my head I want to scream ENOUGH!
If you would stop beating yourself in the head at such a rapid rate, your arms probably wouldn't be tired.
The headaches would probably go away, too.
the bib
07-13-2004, 03:33 PM
Hey there Suth.... I totally understand what you are talking about. About 5 years ago the doctor told me I have chronic fatigue syndrome (C.F.S.).
They say the origin is unknown. Some researchers suspect it may be caused by a virus, but no distinct viral cause has been identified. I also tend to be anemic and I have asthma. My doctor thinks this all started when I got pneumonia one winter and never really snapped back. Since then I was even tested for luekemia thru a bone marrow test only to find out I just had no iron in my blood. (That was one big assed needle!)
I know how you feel some days when I can bearly put my arms over my head I want to scream ENOUGH! Ok sometimes I do! <ha!> But what can ya do just keep on!
Yoga is a really good thing I need to do it more often. I got the Yoga for dummies book now to actually use it :)
My daughter suffered from that for about 4 years. I had her to internists, specilaists ... tests upon tests .. relapse upon relapse.
I finally brought her to a doctor who does traditional and holistic medicines.
She counseled her, worked her diet and regimen. No meds. That was 4 years ago and no relpase. What makes this even more amazing is my daughter goes to college full time and works about 35 hours a week.
If anything, she should be relapsing now. But she;s not.
I think holistic methods are under rated. Bodies really are made to heal themselves in many instances.
ponygurl
07-13-2004, 05:04 PM
Suth.. stay active,.. I've seen people with RA who stop being active and there's no road back then.
And you aren't whiney.. fercryinoutloud.. dealing with constant pain is a horrible energy drain.
ponygurl
07-13-2004, 05:05 PM
If you would stop beating yourself in the head at such a rapid rate, your arms probably wouldn't be tired.
The headaches would probably go away, too.
I always thought that monkey was actually making a rude gesture.. ;D
I always thought that monkey was actually making a rude gesture.. ;D
I've been thinking of rearranging its tail and arm in my Paint Shop Pro software. ;D
Show it to me when you are done...I may want to change. Hmmmm Lone wants to play with my monkey's tail. Kinda pervy. :o
I have my weak moments. ;D
Persephone
07-14-2004, 12:02 PM
My daughter suffered from that for about 4 years. I had her to internists, specilaists ... tests upon tests .. relapse upon relapse.
I finally brought her to a doctor who does traditional and holistic medicines.
She counseled her, worked her diet and regimen. No meds. That was 4 years ago and no relpase. What makes this even more amazing is my daughter goes to college full time and works about 35 hours a week.
If anything, she should be relapsing now. But she;s not.
I think holistic methods are under rated. Bodies really are made to heal themselves in many instances.
What kind of changes did your daughter make in her diet? I'm always interested in hearing what worked for others.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 12:06 PM
Hey there Suth.... I totally understand what you are talking about. About 5 years ago the doctor told me I have chronic fatigue syndrome (C.F.S.).
They say the origin is unknown. Some researchers suspect it may be caused by a virus, but no distinct viral cause has been identified. I also tend to be anemic and I have asthma. My doctor thinks this all started when I got pneumonia one winter and never really snapped back. Since then I was even tested for luekemia thru a bone marrow test only to find out I just had no iron in my blood. (That was one big assed needle!)
I know how you feel some days when I can bearly put my arms over my head I want to scream ENOUGH! Ok sometimes I do! <ha!> But what can ya do just keep on!
Yoga is a really good thing I need to do it more often. I got the Yoga for dummies book now to actually use it :)
I love yoga. But I've gotten tired of the yoga tapes, and I can't always do every pose on them. I'm going to start just turning the TV to the New Age music channel and making up my own routines.
I hope you take advantage of the spa treatments for yourself. I've actually been thinking of giving myself a day at the spa.
the bib
07-14-2004, 12:22 PM
What kind of changes did your daughter make in her diet? I'm always interested in hearing what worked for others.
Mostly she had to avoid junk foods ... fried foods, processed sugars.
Stay w/the natural and non preservative stuff. Limit caffeine and nuts.
Since you asked the question, it brought me back in time ... thinking and my conclusion about the whole thing.
I think the 2 things that helped most (and this is just a mother's impression) was the admonishment to get adequate rest no matter what and most importantly how can I put it? The doctor's counseling in effect gave her permission or maybe prescribed an attitude of feeling well and healthy.
Mind over matter, so to speak coming from someone who was respected and trusted telling her that by worrying about getting and being sick, she was in effect, telling her body .. and expecting her body to be sick.
The latter I think, was the crux of her holistic treatment. (IMHO).
Like you said you willed your well being and it helped and worked ... I think as much as anything, it was a matter of healing between the ears as well as the body.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 12:44 PM
It's interesting that you put it that way. I would say that the main thing that help me when I first began to improve without drugs was that I decided to make peace with my fear of the illness itself.
I grew up with a grandfather and an uncle who were both crippled from this disease. When I was first told, this was what I had, my fear was enormous.
It is difficult to explain the difference in fighting a fear and peacefully accepting a fear. But that is what I did to get off the medications.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 12:50 PM
The rest part is very important too. I think that your body will heal itself of many things if it is getting proper nutrition and proper rest. The difficulty, though, is that not all sleep is really restorative rest. If you are in pain or over-tired or over-stressed, it is very difficult to get deep rest even during sleep.
Everybody needs time planned into their routines for mental breaks from their worries. The body is not made to withstand constant tension...even if the tension is coming from something else that has gone wrong in the body.
Whenever this happens, I always have this feeling of guilt. I have beat this thing through will power before, and I should be able to again if only I were not so weak. And so on and so forth.
I suspect you're looking at it backwards. IMO, nobody ever willed themselves to health. However, people will themselves to sickness all the time. Naturally they don't set out to make themselves sick, but their resentments of perceived injustices are evidence of the kind of egotistical will that eventually destroys most of us, whether we smoke ourselves to death, or get into an argument with someone we're driving with and end up being scraped off the highway with a spatula, or whatever.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 08:30 PM
IMO, nobody ever willed themselves to health.
Never say never.
I imagine it works in both directions. People do make themselves sick through mental, physical and emotional factors. They worry too much. They don't sleep right. They don't eat right. They don't get enough sunlight or exercise. Most people abuse their bodies routinely.
And once someone is in an unhealthy pattern, it takes mental and emotional change to start getting out of that. It does take "willing" yourself to health.
And then sometimes shit just happens. You get a virus. You have a genetic defect. You get hit on the highway when someone else was not paying attention and rammed into you. That's when you find yourself in a situation where nothing you could have "willed" caused the illness, but it will take enormous "will" to overcome it.
I imagine it works in both directions.
Why? If you can will yourself to be well, why can't you will yourself to be a redhead?
And once someone is in an unhealthy pattern, it takes mental and emotional change to start getting out of that. It does take "willing" yourself to health.
Then what exactly is the difference between the kind of will that makes you well and the kind that makes you sick?
And then sometimes shit just happens. You get a virus. You have a genetic defect.
Obviously you can't do anything about whatever got you where you are. However, resenting the illness will make you sicker faster.
truelies
07-14-2004, 08:40 PM
http://www.wellnesskinesiology.com/
Persephone
07-14-2004, 08:49 PM
Why? If you can will yourself to be well, why can't you will yourself to be a redhead?
::)
Obviously, there are physical limits to what you can do through will power. You can't heal a broken leg just by thinking it isn't broken anymore. But you can help it heal faster by getting the right rest and nutrition and keeping the right attitude about it.
I'm just one of many generations of my family that has had the same disease. There is nothing I can do to change that. There is nothing I can do to put myself in a body that shows no harm from this disease.
But on the other hand, I'm the only one in anyone's memory in my family who has had this disease and not been a total cripple from it. Maybe it's luck. Maybe it's fate. Maybe God has something else in mind for me.
Or maybe I'm right that I can will myself to at least have some choice in the way my body responds to the disease process.
Who knows?
::)
Obviously, there are physical limits to what you can do through will power. You can't heal a broken leg just by thinking it isn't broken anymore. But you can help it heal faster by getting the right rest and nutrition and keeping the right attitude about it.
What does will have to do with that?
I'm just one of many generations of my family that has had the same disease. There is nothing I can do to change that. There is nothing I can do to put myself in a body that shows no harm from this disease.
I heard you the first time. The repitition suggests that you're fighting me with your will. ;)
But on the other hand, I'm the only one in anyone's memory in my family who has had this disease and not been a total cripple from it. Maybe it's luck. Maybe it's fate. Maybe God has something else in mind for me.
Or maybe I'm right that I can will myself to at least have some choice in the way my body responds to the disease process.
Who knows?
Can you stop resenting the disease...or anything else, for that matter?
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:06 PM
Can you stop resenting the disease...or anything else, for that matter?
I don't resent the disease. But I do resent you for twisting what I've said trying to get me to argue about it.
I don't feel like arguing. I don't need to argue. I need to be calm so that I can continue on the path I've set for myself in getting through the pain without drugs.
I don't actually give a flying flip whether I convince anyone I'm right or whether I have my vocabulary corrected on how I'm thinking about this. I just care that I do the things I know will help me feel better and that I get through the pain in the meantime without killing anyone. :P
Can you stop resenting the disease...or anything else, for that matter?
I think you have totally missed the point. She stopped fearing the disease, which helped her get as well as she can be. She is not crippled by the disease, which has crippled other members of her family. Do you think she resents that? If you really think Suth is running around feeling sorry for herself and resenting her genetic make up, you need to go back and read her first few posts to this thread.
I don't resent the disease. But I do resent you for twisting what I've said trying to get me to argue about it.
I can't believe you're giving Arod the time of day about this issue.
What he should do, if he had any honor, is for him to place his testicles on the kitchen counter and slam them with a hammer repeatedly so he can understand the pain you're dealing with.
Maybe he'd understand what "resentment towards his aching balls" would be all about and he'd get a clue.
Of course, you wouldn't be able to empathize with him...but then you'd be even in that he isn't empathizing with you.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:13 PM
I can't believe you're giving Arod the time of day about this issue.
What he should do, if he had any honor, is for him to place his testicles on the kitchen counter and slam them with a hammer repeatedly so he can understand the pain you're dealing with.
Maybe he'd understand what "resentment towards his aching balls" would be all about and he'd get a clue.
Of course, you wouldn't be able to empathize with him...but then you'd be even in that he isn't empathizing with you.
LOL. That helps. I just needed a little perspective. ;D
I don't resent the disease.
You probably do and don't even know it.
But I do resent you for twisting what I've said trying to get me to argue about it.
Very intelligent. Now you'll probably feel worse, and on top of it get to blame me for it - even though I didn't do anything wrong. I know you think I just suckered you into an argument for my own amusement, but that's a lie.
I don't feel like arguing. I don't need to argue. I need to be calm so that I can continue on the path I've set for myself in getting through the pain without drugs.
To the degree that you are unaware of your resentments, your calm is phony.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:17 PM
To the degree that you are unaware of your resentments, your calm is phony.
What bad said. ;D
Which part of, "I don't feel like arguing" was not clear? ???
I think you have totally missed the point.
Actually, I am exactly on point.
She stopped fearing the disease, which helped her get as well as she can be. She is not crippled by the disease, which has crippled other members of her family. Do you think she resents that? If you really think Suth is running around feeling sorry for herself and resenting her genetic make up, you need to go back and read her first few posts to this thread.
That may just be telling us is that she is trying not to feel sorry for herself, trying not to be afraid. I give her an A for effort. What I'm saying is it won't work in the long run if she continues to react unreasonably to perceived injustices, as she did in this very thread.
Which part of, "I don't feel like arguing" was not clear? ???
No, no. You don't understand. Arod has channeled Suth's pain and he knows she's faking it and is resentful over her calm.
Whatever the fuck that means. ::)
Which part of, "I don't feel like arguing" was not clear? ???
You talking to me? Am I making her argue?
Actually, I am exactly on point.
Actually, that was just my "nice" way of telling you that, IMO, you are way out of line.
That may just be telling us is that she is trying not to feel sorry for herself, trying not to be afraid. I give her an A for effort. What I'm saying is it won't work in the long run if she continues to react unreasonably to perceived injustices, as she did in this very thread.
Unreasonably? Suth comes here and tells us that she has found peace despite her challenges, and you nitpick. I think you are being unreasonable.
You talking to me? Am I making her argue?
She said she didn't feel like arguing, and you persisted anyway.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:24 PM
There are too many people around me with too many problems for me to think mine anything all that special. Jeez. I have it so lucky. And I am very well aware of that.
I wasn't planning to get back on here tonight. This isn't always the most "calming" atmosphere. And I did just want to do something to relax.
So I got in bed with a copy of The Magician's Nephew. My back went into spasms. They weren't quite as bad if I sat up. Which led me to thinking that I might just distract myself for a little while by getting on the computer until the spasms calmed down.
Now it comes to me that I could have just read the book sitting up. :P :D
Actually, I am exactly on point.
Of course. As always. Batting a thousand. Good job.
That may just be telling us is that she is trying not to feel sorry for herself, trying not to be afraid.
Yes. Maybe you're right. Maybe your wrong...perhaps...
I give her an A for effort.
Wow! She has graduated from Arod's University of Magna Cum Loudly! No gold stars on her final paper? Bummer. :'(
What I'm saying is it won't work in the long run if she continues to react unreasonably to perceived injustices, as she did in this very thread.
You're drunk.
Unreasonably?
Yes. She resented me. You think that's a reasonable reaction?
I think you are being unreasonable.
Let's say for argument's sake that I am. Is it reasonable for her to react to my unreasonableness with resentment?
Yes? Why? What good does it do?
Now it comes to me that I could have just read the book sitting up. :P :D
You could play that Atari joy stick thingy. ;D
She said she didn't feel like arguing, and you persisted anyway.
Yet another enlightened one who can hear the sound of one hand clapping.
Yes. She resented me. You think that's a reasonable reaction?
Under the circumstances, yes, I do.
Let's say for argument's sake that I am. Is it reasonable for her to react to my unreasonableness with resentment?
It might be reasonable for her to politely tell you that she did not feel like arguing...wait a minute, she DID do that.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:29 PM
You could play that Atari joy stick thingy. ;D
Hey...yeah. That's a good idea. It's never really bothered me before when the Space Invaders killed me. It probably wouldn't be any worse tonight. ;D
Yet another enlightened one who can hear the sound of one hand clapping.
What in God's name are you talking about?
There are too many people around me with too many problems for me to think mine anything all that special. Jeez. I have it so lucky. And I am very well aware of that.
I wasn't planning to get back on here tonight. This isn't always the most "calming" atmosphere. And I did just want to do something to relax.
So I got in bed with a copy of The Magician's Nephew. My back went into spasms. They weren't quite as bad if I sat up. Which led me to thinking that I might just distract myself for a little while by getting on the computer until the spasms calmed down.
Now it comes to me that I could have just read the book sitting up. :P :D
I'm sorry you're not feeling well Suth. I want you to know I think you're a very special person.
Hey...yeah. That's a good idea. It's never really bothered me before when the Space Invaders killed me. It probably wouldn't be any worse tonight. ;D
I only thought of it because I ran into ours today while cleaning out hte linen closet. There it sits, collecting dust, my husband has used it exactly one time. ;D
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:32 PM
I'm sorry you're not feeling well Suth. I want you to know I think you're a very special person.
:)
I'm sorry you're not feeling well Suth. I want you to know I think you're a very special person.
ditto. :-*
Yes. She resented me. You think that's a reasonable reaction?
Arod, I don't mean to shock and alarm you...but we all resent you...all the time. :-*
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:33 PM
What in God's name are you talking about?
He's flunked his Zen test again? ;)
Under the circumstances, yes, I do.
Circumstances, shmircumstances.
Don't you understand that resentment is for losers? If I'm being unjust, she's playing into my hands. If not, she's making a fool of herself. What other options are there?
It might be reasonable for her to politely tell you that she did not feel like arguing...wait a minute, she DID do that.
Indeed she did. What's the problem?
He's flunked his Zen test again? ;)
Maybe you could send him some of those yoga tapes that you are bored with? ;D
:)
Oh, suck it up and quit resenting your calm. ::)
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:35 PM
Arod, dear, I was just trying to tell you that now is not a good time. If you weren't so full of your own self-righteous defensiveness, you'd understand that. Everyone else did.
Don't you understand that resentment is for losers?
Yeah, what does she resent again, exactly?
Indeed she did. What's the problem?
she does not feel like arguing, do you get that?
WHO KEEPS SMITING ME??!!??!!??!?!?!?! I totally resent that. :D
Arod, I don't mean to shock and alarm you...but we all resent you...all the time. :-*
Which is, of course, exactly why you can't leave me alone.
Keep it up if you like. Won't hurt me. :)
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:38 PM
Oh, suck it up and quit resenting your calm. ::)
Heh. Just because you're sitting in the calm in the middle of the storm doesn't mean somebody's roof isn't getting the shit knocked out of it. ;)
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:39 PM
WHO KEEPS SMITING ME??!!??!!??!?!?!?! I totally resent that. :D
I gave you an applaud. Anything to promote a balanced karma. :)
I gave you an applaud. Anything to promote a balanced karma. :)
Oh, thank you. Ummm, we're going to need Wendy or Sky to balance you out. ;D
Yeah, what does she resent again, exactly?
That would be me.
she does not feel like arguing, do you get that?
So she stopped arguing. What's the problem?
Yeah, what does she resent again, exactly?
"The Calm."
Hold on...one moment <contemplating navel>...I feel a deepness coming over me unlike anything I've ever experienced...a spirituality that cannot be contained...
True spiritual enlightenment is so profound that it somewhat slows industrial developement." ~Archangel
Yes, a spiritual enlightenment that somewhat slows industrial development...probably due to "The Calm." Plus, it's VERY profound.
That would be me.
ROFL!! I think she resented your attempt to "arod up" her peace and love thread, but I seriously doubt she resents you.
So she stopped arguing. What's the problem?
No problem, except that you won't admit that you were wrong to persist when she politely asked you not to.
Arod, dear, I was just trying to tell you that now is not a good time.
Don't talk to me then. You're happy, I'm happy. Right?
whoooo hoooo, I'm all even again. Thank you, to the person that gave me the second applaud. :-*
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:44 PM
Oh, thank you. Ummm, we're going to need Wendy or Sky to balance you out. ;D
:D
Today, when I was in Child's Pose, my cat climbed on my back and started bathing himself. Every once in a while he would lick my arms. I got so tickled I forgot to breathe. :D
ROFL!! I think she resented your attempt to "arod up" her peace and love thread, but I seriously doubt she resents you.
Don't be idiotic.
No problem, except that you won't admit that you were wrong to persist when she politely asked you not to.
Damn right I won't, because I wasn't.
You guys think you're helping her right now. You're not. You're just helping her avoid the awareness of her own hostility, flooding her ears with sweet nothings.
:D
Today, when I was in Child's Pose, my cat climbed on my back and started bathing himself. Every once in a while he would lick my arms. I got so tickled I forgot to breathe. :D
I love child's pose. You know what's neat? I used to sort of zone out when I did yoga, but now I have the kids with me and it's still very calming, for all of us. When Alexa is totally off the wall, I can rein her in with a little yoga.
Persephone
07-14-2004, 09:48 PM
I love child's pose. You know what's neat? I used to sort of zone out when I did yoga, but now I have the kids with me and it's still very calming, for all of us. When Alexa is totally off the wall, I can rein her in with a little yoga.
My nephew says that they do yoga in his class at school on rainy days when they can't go outside. Smart teacher. :)
Don't be idiotic.
Back atcha. ;)
Damn right I won't, because I wasn't.
O course you are.
You guys think you're helping her right now. You're not. You're just helping her avoid the awareness of her own hostility, flooding her ears with sweet nothings.
arod, I think you are very insightful, you have definately helped me solve some of my own problems. However, I think you lack empathy. I think this is your flaw, your inability, or unwillingness, to understand personal relationships.
My nephew says that they do yoga in his class at school on rainy days when they can't go outside. Smart teacher. :)
yup. :)
arod, I think you are very insightful, you have definately helped me solve some of my own problems. However, I think you lack empathy.
If I've helped you in the past, do you think I had that "empathy" then? Certainly no more than I have it now - but according to you, I helped you nonetheless. How can that be?
If I've helped you in the past, do you think I had that "empathy" then? Certainly no more than I have it now - but according to you, I helped you nonetheless. How can that be?
Because insight and empathy are two different things, sometimes one trait is more useful than the other, depending on the circumstance.
Duty calls, child awake. Night. ;)
Because insight and empathy are two different things, sometimes one trait is more useful than the other, depending on the circumstance.
"Empathy" is not in short supply around here. If she wants that, she should probably leave me alone. If she wants the other, I might have it - possibly more than she wants.
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ponygurl
07-14-2004, 11:26 PM
You probably do and don't even know it.Very intelligent. Now you'll probably feel worse, and on top of it get to blame me for it - even though I didn't do anything wrong. I know you think I just suckered you into an argument for my own amusement, but that's a lie.To the degree that you are unaware of your resentments, your calm is phony.
Man arod.. just when we were worried about you.. you came through with flying colours and once again should be crowned King Prick.
8)
Thank you. I resent you change. :P
the bib
07-17-2004, 12:01 AM
It's interesting that you put it that way. I would say that the main thing that help me when I first began to improve without drugs was that I decided to make peace with my fear of the illness itself.
I grew up with a grandfather and an uncle who were both crippled from this disease. When I was first told, this was what I had, my fear was enormous.
It is difficult to explain the difference in fighting a fear and peacefully accepting a fear. But that is what I did to get off the medications.
It is a heck of a hill you are climbing ...
I also know it's easy for me to say that attitude and will in your arsenel are most important to get you through.
I do believe that it's more than a platitude though and I'm glad that you have adopted them in your repetoire.
Persephone
07-17-2004, 08:10 AM
It is a heck of a hill you are climbing ...
I also know it's easy for me to say that attitude and will in your arsenel are most important to get you through.
I do believe that it's more than a platitude though and I'm glad that you have adopted them in your repetoire.
Thanks, bib. I guess I'll just have to learn to live with the fact that arod doesn't agree that will has anything to do with it. :)
Thanks, bib. I guess I'll just have to learn to live with the fact that arod doesn't agree that will has anything to do with it. :)
I'm afraid that's not acceptable. I'm going to have to will you to see it my way...and I expect to be at least as successful in that endeavor as you will be in willing yourself not to let this disease get the best of you.
the bib
07-19-2004, 03:46 PM
I'm afraid that's not acceptable. I'm going to have to will you to see it my way...and I expect to be at least as successful in that endeavor as you will be in willing yourself not to let this disease get the best of you.
Oh, arod ... you are so wrong in this.
There really is so much in this world which is mind (will) over matter (body).
The signals your mind sends your body dictate your body's responses.
Have you never had a pain that you could control ... so that you got the better of the pain and it did not get the better of you?
It's a difficult endeavor but it can be done and it does work.
I hope you never find need to try it ... but if you ever need it, it is part of the natural symbiosis of mind, body and spirit which each of us is endowed with.
Think of it as a natural talent you have as yet not tapped.
Have you never had a pain that you could control ... so that you got the better of the pain and it did not get the better of you?
Of course. If you think it is an effort of will by which such pain is overcome, you don't know what will is.
the bib
07-19-2004, 04:12 PM
Of course. If you think it is an effort of will by which such pain is overcome, you don't know what will is.
Why would you say that?
Personally, I have willed myself through much in my lifetime ... others comment on the strength of my will, and have for all of my life.
I can personally attest to the power of will and in the face of overwhelming odds.
What do YOU think will is?
ponygurl
07-19-2004, 04:16 PM
IMO, nobody ever willed themselves to health.
I thought you were the one that said people who are addicted to narcotics should simply beat the withdrawal symptoms by self control?
I'm sure you willl correct me if I'm wrong. :)
What do YOU think will is?
The ego trying to make one white hair black.
the bib
07-19-2004, 04:24 PM
The ego trying to make one white hair black.
No, that's silly.
It is the mind/will/ego/spirit/strength combining forces to make the toothache disappear.
I thought you were the one that said people who are addicted to narcotics should simply beat the withdrawal symptoms by self control?
I doubt I said that exactly. "Self-control" is a nonsensical idea if it means restraining yourself from doing what you ought not do. Sort of like driving with your brakes on for fear of breaking the speed laws.
No, that's silly.
It is the mind/will/ego/spirit/strength combining forces to make the toothache disappear.
Fine. Do it your way. My way takes no effort whatsoever...but of course I'm not result oriented, as you apparently are - which seems rather at odds with the teachings of Christ, if you don't mind me saying so.
ponygurl
07-19-2004, 04:36 PM
Well.. I believe will can help one overcome many things, and pain is one of them.
The pain itself still exists, but the hold it has over your days goes away.
I have never been one to listen to body pain.I believe this works to my advantage like this....
I do something that strains something that is getting older in my body.. body says "ouch".
Silly old Zena simply doesn't listen.. and continues the activity.. eventually the part that is ouching heals, gets stronger muscles..the activity them causes less stress..
Eventually.. the activity is easy peasy.
the bib
07-19-2004, 04:41 PM
Fine. Do it your way. My way takes no effort whatsoever...but of course I'm not result oriented, as you apparently are - which seems rather at odds with the teachings of Christ, if you don't mind me saying so.
Yes, I am results oriented by nature/nurture/habit/character.
WHat's that got to do w/Christ and what's that got to do with me and Christ's?
Whats'yer pernt? ???
Your own Savior said He could do nothing of Himself. What makes you different?
the bib
07-19-2004, 06:10 PM
Your own Savior said He could do nothing of Himself. What makes you different?
"My own?"
You make a leap good sir ... I have never disclosed my personal beliefs here.
I have tried to dispel misconceptions regards the RCC but that has been for informational purposes and maybe the valiant part of my nature to champion the underdog when ganged up upon by a pack of bullies.
That said... and consistent with that which I have said as to personal belief, I DO believe that we are all comprised of mind, body and soul/spirit.
IMHO, the spirit is the life force which empowers mind and body. It is within the soul/spirit in which will is found.
FWIW, I think that IF there is truth to the belief that we are made in God's image, it is the spirit component of our being which relates.
"My own?"
You make a leap good sir ... I have never disclosed my personal beliefs here.
Sorry, I got the idea you were a Christian somehow or other.
That said... and consistent with that which I have said as to personal belief, I DO believe that we are all comprised of mind, body and soul/spirit.
IMHO, the spirit is the life force which empowers mind and body. It is within the soul/spirit in which will is found.
You are mistaken, IMO, in drawing no distinction between soul and Spirit. Soul is to Spirit as the plant is to the sun. Soul and Spirit each have a separate will. If the soul's will is to do otherwise than the Spirit wills, the soul is left to its own resources. If not, then its will is subordinated to the will of the Spirit.
the bib
07-20-2004, 05:06 PM
Sorry, I got the idea you were a Christian somehow or other.You are mistaken, IMO, in drawing no distinction between soul and Spirit. Soul is to Spirit as the plant is to the sun. Soul and Spirit each have a separate will. If the soul's will is to do otherwise than the Spirit wills, the soul is left to its own resources. If not, then its will is subordinated to the will of the Spirit.
I had a Catholic school education. I do try to dispel false conclusions about the RCC from the POV that I have the knowledge and also have a penchant for standing by the underdog in a fight.
Christians are consistently targeted and ridiculed here and mostly by people who have no right to talk.
I do play devil's advocate at times but my political views are formed from historical prospective filtered through my personal standards of honor, integrity, right and wrong.
One need not be Christian to hold traditionalist/conservative values.
Indeed, if Christ had ANY political leanings at all, I'm convinced he'd be a socialist.
I can't say I agree or disagree with the dual nature of a soul/spirit component to human beings.
I will say that I used soul/spirit to enhance the chance that you would consider that to be a legitimate component to "self."
I didn't anticipate that you would recognize the existence of either, let alone both.
<sniff, sniff>
Anyone smell the rotting corpse of persecution?
the bib
07-20-2004, 05:22 PM
<sniff, sniff>
Anyone smell the rotting corpse of persecution?
Oh, go shit in your hat bn, and don't forget to put it on before you leave. ;D
Indeed, if Christ had ANY political leanings at all, I'm convinced he'd be a socialist.
I wonder if you realize what a Tiger-ish view that is...but that's another thread. ;)
the bib
07-20-2004, 05:50 PM
I wonder if you realize what a Tiger-ish view that is...but that's another thread. ;)
Yes, another thread, another time.
Let me know when you're ready. ;D
Persephone
07-21-2004, 03:30 PM
Arod, how do you explain the placebo effect? Isn't that a matter of the mind controlling the body?
Arod, how do you explain the placebo effect? Isn't that a matter of the mind controlling the body?
It may be, but we're discussing the will controlling the body, not the mind. To the degree that you believe something will make you better, you give up the internal struggle with the illness, which may produce a temporary cure. You are then dependent on whomever or whatever helped you believe that, because you are the slave of that which makes you free.
Persephone
07-21-2004, 04:13 PM
I believe the mind is capable of deliberately choosing to resolve internal struggles contributing to illnesses in the same way it is capable of unknowingly resolving them through things like the placebo effect.
Well it isn't, so shut the hell up. 8)
Persephone
07-21-2004, 04:19 PM
Well it isn't, so shut the hell up. 8)
Says you. :P
the bib
07-24-2004, 12:19 AM
It may be, but we're discussing the will controlling the body, not the mind. To the degree that you believe something will make you better, you give up the internal struggle with the illness, which may produce a temporary cure. You are then dependent on whomever or whatever helped you believe that, because you are the slave of that which makes you free.
That's way to complicated, arod.
You simply decide to feel better, and whalah! you do!
You might not be able to get rid of all the pain but you can lessen and shorten the duration.
It works.
That's way to complicated, arod.
There is nothing complicated about it, except to someone who is too enamored with her preconceptions to consider it.
You simply decide to feel better, and whalah! you do!
You might not be able to get rid of all the pain but you can lessen and shorten the duration.
It works.
For everybody, every time? Obviously not, in which case you may have succeeded in finding some mental trickery that produces the desired effect in some cases, but have failed to apprehend the underlying principle, because you unconsciously equate correlation with causation.
the bib
07-25-2004, 12:50 PM
There is nothing complicated about it, except to someone who is too enamored with her preconceptions to consider it.For everybody, every time? Obviously not, in which case you may have succeeded in finding some mental trickery that produces the desired effect in some cases, but have failed to apprehend the underlying principle, because you unconsciously equate correlation with causation.
Each of us has talents which we pursue or let slide.
If you have never been beneficiary of the natural ability for mind over manner, well, you mind is probably just not as in tune with your matter as it could be.
It's not finding a way to ignore the pain ... it's matter f teaching your mind to overcome it.
Simplistically out, a wound sends a signal called pain to the brain.
The brain acknowledges ... it's why we feel pain. If you can find a way to train your brain to shut that signal off, you can get rid of the pain.
Will it always work? Of course not. Will it sometimes work? Yep, especially if the pain is chronic and not too severe, it certainly can.
It's not finding a way to ignore the pain ... it's matter f teaching your mind to overcome it.
Simplistically out, a wound sends a signal called pain to the brain.
The brain acknowledges ... it's why we feel pain. If you can find a way to train your brain to shut that signal off, you can get rid of the pain.
See the problem?
I know, shoot yourself in the foot and then tell yourself it doesn't hurt.
the bib
07-26-2004, 10:15 AM
I know, shoot yourself in the foot and then tell yourself it doesn't hurt.
What do you think Lamaze classes are all about.
Anticipating and handling the pain.
Arod, I don;t see where the problem is that you underlined.
I'm not saying that all pain can be willed away.
WE need not agree, I like ya anyway.
Arod, I don;t see where the problem is that you underlined.
You don't see how you've contradicted yourself?
First you tell me it's not about ignoring the pain, then you tell me the exact opposite, that the idea is to "shut the signal off". Which is it?
the bib
07-26-2004, 10:28 AM
You don't see how you've contradicted yourself?
First you tell me it's not about ignoring the pain, then you tell me the exact opposite, that the idea is to "shut the signal off". Which is it?
No arod, if I said it WAS finding a way to ignore the pain I'd be in conflict.
Ignoring means the pain is there and one does not give in to it.
Shutting the signal off means there is no pain.
The former is to acknowledge and feel the pain is there and make a conscious effort to ignore it.
The latter is to shut the brain signal that sends the pain response to the affected area of the body.
Ergo, no pain, not control the existing pain.
What do you think Lamaze classes are all about.
Lamaze is about focusing on something other than the pain. You focus on breathing instead, it doesn't make the pain go away though, as I vividly recall. ;D
Anyway, I think this is apples and oranges. Labor is a short term condition, long term pain is totally different.
the bib
07-26-2004, 10:31 AM
Lamaze is about focusing on something other than the pain. You focus on breathing instead, it doesn't make the pain go away though, as I vividly recall. ;D
Anyway, I think this is apples and oranges. Labor is a short term condition, long term pain is totally different.
All and all, I think that when pain can be anticipated ... short or long terms, it is possible to will all or part of it away.
It's what arod and I have been going around about ... mind over matter. I think it's possible, he does not.
All and all, I think that when pain can be anticipated ... short or long terms, it is possible to will all or part of it away.
It's what arod and I have been going around about ... mind over matter. I think it's possible, he does not.
I do not think it is possible to will pain away. I mean, if the pain has a real physical cause, that is. You can only control your response to the pain, which has the appearance of lessening the pain because you are managing your reaction.
No arod, if I said it WAS finding a way to ignore the pain I'd be in conflict.
Ignoring means the pain is there and one does not give in to it.
Shutting the signal off means there is no pain.
The former is to acknowledge and feel the pain is there and make a conscious effort to ignore it.
The latter is to shut the brain signal that sends the pain response to the affected area of the body.
Ergo, no pain, not control the existing pain.
So do you solve the problem of your engine light being on by cutting the wire?
Persephone
07-26-2004, 11:21 AM
I do not think it is possible to will pain away. I mean, if the pain has a real physical cause, that is. You can only control your response to the pain, which has the appearance of lessening the pain because you are managing your reaction.
Yes and no. For acute pain such as from a broken bone, you can't just think "it doesn't hurt" and make it go away. I think chronic pain is a little different, though. How you manage your reaction to the pain can have an effect on how much pain you continue to suffer.
If you tense your muscles in reaction to shoulder pain, you will have back spasms...I've found that out. Or if you let the pain keep you from sleeping, one physical problem will lead to more physical problems.
You have some control over the degree to which the pain affects your life and the degree to which the pain affects your overall health. And that I think is a matter of will.
Yes and no. For acute pain such as from a broken bone, you can't just think "it doesn't hurt" and make it go away. I think chronic pain is a little different, though. How you manage your reaction to the pain can have an effect on how much pain you continue to suffer.
If you tense your muscles in reaction to shoulder pain, you will have back spasms...I've found that out. Or if you let the pain keep you from sleeping, one physical problem will lead to more physical problems.
You have some control over the degree to which the pain affects your life and the degree to which the pain affects your overall health. And that I think is a matter of will.
Right, which is why I told bib that using lamaze as an example was comparing aples to oranges.
I think a lot of the same concepts apply, but part of lamaze is, of course, knowing that labor is a temporary condition. ;)
Persephone
07-26-2004, 11:29 AM
Right, which is why I told bib that using lamaze as an example was comparing aples to oranges.
I think a lot of the same concepts apply, but part of lamaze is, of course, knowing that labor is a temporary condition. ;)
There is something to the mind over matter with acute pain as well, though. If your body releases the right endorphins, you will feel less pain. It's not out of the question that you learn to send out the right metal messages to release the right endorphins. It's just that most people aren't going to think to deliberately try that unles they know the pain is coming.
There is something to the mind over matter with acute pain as well, though. If your body releases the right endorphins, you will feel less pain. It's not out of the question that you learn to send out the right metal messages to release the right endorphins. It's just that most people aren't going to think to deliberately try that unles they know the pain is coming.
I agree with this. ALthough, I do think it's possible to backtrack and start to manage even acute pain, if you can keep your wits about you. It probably depends on how much experience you have in dealing with pain in general.
Persephone
07-26-2004, 11:35 AM
I agree with this. ALthough, I do think it's possible to backtrack and start to manage even acute pain, if you can keep your wits about you. It probably depends on how much experience you have in dealing with pain in general.
Like the gymnist who does a flip on a freshly sprained ankle.
Like the gymnist who does a flip on a freshly sprained ankle.
snort, something like that. ;D
Persephone
07-26-2004, 11:43 AM
BTW, I think I've finally found the right class for me. After perusing the line up at the yoga center, I have determined that I am best suited for "Basic Serenity." As soon as I find my calm, I'm going to sign up. ;D
BTW, I think I've finally found the right class for me. After perusing the line up at the yoga center, I have determined that I am best suited for "Basic Serenity." As soon as I find my calm, I'm going to sign up. ;D
Go for it. ;D
Persephone
07-26-2004, 11:48 AM
Go for it. ;D
I can't wait till I'm ready for Intermediate Serenity. ;)
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