Pilots must answer for 'friendly fire'

[kathleen]

story (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/FDCE67A0908335B686256CAB007F5664?OpenDocument&Head line=The+case+of+Major+Harry+Schmidt+)

Did amphetamines warp the judgment of the two men?

Are the pilots being put in legal jeopardy just to mollify Canada?

Must anybody be held legally accountable for the deaths? If so, are Schmidt and Umbach the right people?

What message will this case send to the Canadian public - and to other American pilots sent in harm's way?

[buzaw]

The only ones to be under fire here should be whoever was remiss in informing the pilots of the presence of the Canadians. Were the Canadians careless in regard to making their presence known to the proper officials? Is this being covered up with the pilots as scapegoats?

Looks to me like a communications gap, not pilot error.

[Satan]

story (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/FDCE67A0908335B686256CAB007F5664?OpenDocument&Head line=The+case+of+Major+Harry+Schmidt+)

From all that, THIS is the meat:

But on the night of April 17, Umbach was the senior pilot in a two-plane patrol over Afghanistan. In the eighth hour of a long-haul mission, the pilots were high over an area near Kandahar, circling in case GIs below needed help.

That's where Schmidt spotted the unmistakable glow of tracer bullets below. Nobody at the pre-flight briefing had mentioned any nighttime training exercises by friendly forces. Schmidt and Umbach assumed the bullets were aimed at them.

Schmidt radioed a nearby radar plane for permission to fire. The response: "Stand by."

But Schmidt saw more tracer fire that seemed to him to be tracking Umbach's Falcon. Schmidt radioed the radar plane, "I'm rolling in, in self-defense." Schmidt dropped a bomb on the source of the fire and said he had scored a direct hit.

Within seconds, the radar plane radioed back, "Disengage! Friendlies, Kandahar."

The rest is posturing and other fluffy bullshit, along with the obligatory drug reference that must accompany any trial story nowadays.


Did amphetamines warp the judgment of the two men?

Shouldn't even be an issue. Apparently there is no indication that the amphetamines were of the illegal variety, and they had the blessing of the U S By-God Armed Forces.

Are the pilots being put in legal jeopardy just to mollify Canada?

Who can say? They shouldn't be.

Must anybody be held legally accountable for the deaths? If so, are Schmidt and Umbach the right people?

This is purely a case of 'collateral damage', and it has happened in every war since the beginning of time. Shit happens, even when lives are at stake.

The fact that Schmidt engaged after being told by the radar plane to "stand by" might surely be considered dereliction of duty. But manslaughter? Assault? BULLSHIT.

What message will this case send to the Canadian public - and to other American pilots sent in harm's way?

Who gives a damn what 'message' it sends? The question is: Have they broken any law or not, and will they be tried impartially, so that justice will be served either way?

[wendy]

Actually, I'm glad they brought the drugs into play. I have a difficult time understanding why they would provide pilots with a substance, the possession of which, would send my ass to jail.

So much for fighting the war ON Drugs. ::)

I'm not a pilot and I don't know what their criteria is for assessing a dangerous situation. I do suspect, however, the outcome of this investigation has been predetermined and this step is just for show.

[Lance]

Its collaterial damage and this stuff always happens in war. You never want it to, but it does.

The only reason the pilots should even have to answer charges is if their ROE's specifically stated they needed control clearance to fire on a target. If the ROE did contain such restrictions, then they did disobey orders and should be prosecuted.

OTOH, if they have clearance to fire in self-defense, then its a no-brainer and should be thrown out. At the speed modern warfare operates, you have a split-second to make such a decision.

I am sorry the Canadians died, but to "prosecute" our soldiers is clearly a political grandstanding ploy. And will most definitely have an adverse affect on military morale. And that, I would think, is the last thing a president trying to start a war would need. ::)

[LanceALott]

It's a damn tragedy, and my heart goes out to both the Canadians and to the pilots.

Yes, shit happens in every war; but most of you who watched the Vietnam war on your TV probably do not know how often it happens. America had over 58,000 Americans killed in that damn war, and the sad truth is over one-third were the result of friendly fire where Americans accidentally killed Americans.

In the Gulf war, America only had about 100 deaths, and darn near all of them were friendly fire, Americans accidentally killing Americans. One of the dead in the Gulf, was a kid I taught in shcool, his tank was blown to hell by one of our own airplanes.

[kathleen]

Would there be a hearing if it were American soldiers killed rather than Canadians?

[Lance]

Kathleen: It would depend on the circumstances. If a ROE was blatently violated, then your answer would be yes. If some of those killed were officers or VIPS, then yes.

Ordinary troops..no.

I still think this is more political grandstanding than anything else.

[ilovelucy]

Friendly fire deaths are so tragic really.

There have been many. I would imagine.

Stonewall Jackson was killed by friendly fire...He is one of my heros (Did you know he started a school for black children before the War Against the States?)

Think about modern logistics and modern weapons. We are not dealing with one on one or hand to hand combat anymore, are we? It is so computerized and sanitized, etc....precision warfare with precision results and no one really has to see what is being blown apart....

[Satan]

So much for fighting the war ON Drugs. ::)

;D

[ilovelucy]

You know, I re-read this thread and picked up on the drug angle and actually, this is rather amazing.

Are our pilots　given drugs or do they simple get them from various sources to help them get through their missions?

[Satan]

You want the truth? Or the Official Truth? ;)

[ilovelucy]

I want to know the truth.

[wendy]

They are given drugs.

[I-RIGHT-I]

According to interviews with pilots and suits from the Dept. of Defense that I saw last week, not only are they given the drugs they are ordered to take them. All the pilots are on them or they are grounded. They are doing this because of the extended hours these men must fly. Someone should be held accountable for the accident with the Canadians but you can bet it won't be the higher ups. Shit always rolls downhill.

The pilots will probably catch hell for this and when they do look for other pilots to resign their commissions. Because of that this whole incident might get swept under the rug.

In every war there are deaths from friendly fire. It is a fact and there is no possible way to avoid it. It's too bad about the men who died. Those Canadian soldiers are some of the best people Canada has produced. The worst are the Canadian politicians who are making the most out of this accident because they HATE the USA.
I would ground the pilots for awhile but take no legal action against them, pay off the families of the dead soldiers and say screw you to the Canadian government.

[Thunder Bay]

Uh, hello;

Collateral damage is when the military screws up and kills civilians; friendly-fire is when they kill their own or allies. That's why there are two different terms. The pilots were told to stand by; they should have been told to get the hell away. Either way, Grandpa always said, "Know what the fuck you're shootin' at, boy" so IMO the pilots and their boss should do five years on the rock. Otherwise, there is no incentive to stop this ignorant bullshit. As LAL said, too many people are dying 'cause the military does the same old shit.

Dumb fucking American idiots can't tell the enemy from the friends. The bastards should do LIFE.

[Thunder Bay]

Ah;

Adolph's butt-plug chimes in; don't get me started on yellow, sheep-lovin' trolls with bad comb-overs. Why didn't you go to Mexico to draft-dodge? You're makin' Canadians look bad, dude.