Banned Books

[Persephone]

The George County School Board has banned three books, including John Steinbeck's novel Of Mice and Men.

The five-member board on Monday also unanimously banned Fallen Angels and The Things They Carried, two novels about the Vietnam War.

New board member Larry McDonald, who initiated the vote, said he was concerned about profanity and violence in the books.


http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0301/08/m16.html


This pisses me off. In one more year, the boys in the class that is not allowed to read Vietnam novels will be required to register for Selective Service. At what point, are they old enough to be told what war is really like?

[kathleen]

From the article:

McDonald first questioned the Walter Myers book Fallen Angels two weeks ago, saying he was appalled by the book's use of profanity, violence and degradation of women.

But I guess the bible's scenes of violence and degradation of women is OK. ::)

[Persephone]

At least the students will probably read the book this way. If it were required, they'd try to fake their way through it somehow.

And the person who brought up "degradation of women" is probably a Pentacostal who'd beat his wife if she cut her hair.

It was war...how about the "degradation of humanity"? How about a little reality check?

I hate book banning. If you are concerned about profanity-don't use it, violence-stop hitting people, degredation of women-then let your wife work outside the house. Ban books in your own home but stay the hell out of my business. Of Mice and Men is too brilliant to be ignored.

I think small-minded people should be banned.

[jeny]

"let your wife" OAG? How about your wife is gonna make her own decision?

[Lance]

That is just insane. >:(

Hello Germany, circa 1930s.

[LanceALott]

John Steinbeck's one of my favorite authors. I want to be a writer just like him when I grow up.

The book of Steinbeck's most idiots want to burn is "Grapes of Wrath." I remember when Tom Joad was talking to Mr Hines who was spouting off about the Reds as Tom dug a ditch for Hines:

Tom: Why? Mr. Hines, what the heck is a Red, anyhow?

Hines: "Why, a Red is one of those guys who wants a quarter an hour when we is only paying a dime."

Tom: "Why,shucks Mr. Hines, I think we is all Reds then."

[arod]

This pisses me off. In one more year, the boys in the class that is not allowed to read Vietnam novels will be required to register for Selective Service. At what point, are they old enough to be told what war is really like?

Tell you what, Suth, I don't think anyone who reads "War and Peace" or "Les Miserables" will come away thinking of war as a just a bloodier version of dodge ball.

I don't have a problem with these "bannings". Parents have the right to control what goes into their child's mind as best they can; in this case the school board acts as their agent. I could probably have been reading Steinbeck at age 14, but it would have been a lousy idea. Even when I read "Grapes of Wrath" for the first time a few years ago, the ending grossed me out somewhat. I wouldn't want my teenager reading that.

To put this on a par with Hitlerian book burnings is perfectly idiotic - but certainly not surprising coming from Lance.

Somebody wake me up when it is suggested that adults be denied access to such material, K? :)

[kathleen]

To put this on a par with Hitlerian book burnings is perfectly idiotic - but certainly not surprising coming from Lance.


So what is this thing between you and Lance, Arod? I'm awfully curious about your view. But hey, if it's old news and you don't want to bring it up I'm cool with that too. :)

[Persephone]

My problem with this, Pope, is one group of parents dictating that another group of parents' children MUST be denied access to these books.

The teacher in this case had offer alternate assignments for those who did not want to read them. The school board has now said they cannot be assigned at all.

[arod]

My problem with this, Pope, is one group of parents dictating that another group of parents' children MUST be denied access to these books.

So let those parents who want their kids to read those books go get them at the public library, or buy them. Problem solved.

The teacher in this case had offer alternate assignments for those who did not want to read them. The school board has now said they cannot be assigned at all.

Oh, the horror. Whole groups of students deprived of their God-given right to have some authority figure tell them what to think about what they read. What's the country coming to? :)

[Persephone]

And another thing....imagine you are a teacher assigned to teach American Literature 1945-
Present. Could you do this and leave out Vietnam stories? Could you feel you had adequately and accurately covered Vietnam without reading anything that contained "profanity and violence"?

[Persephone]

Oh, the horror. Whole groups of students deprived of their God-given right to have some authority figure tell them what to think about what they read. What's the country coming to? :)



Have you ever been in a classroom? Do you think the teacher is not going to "tell them what to think about what they read" if they are reading Dick and Jane instead of Fallen Angels?

[kathleen]

I don't have a problem with these "bannings". Parents have the right to control what goes into their child's mind as best they can; in this case the school board acts as their agent.

I can only thank God (destiny?, fate?) that as religious as my parents were, they didn't have a view such as this (at least not when it came to books and learning).
I can well imagine how my viewpoint would be different without exposure to Steinback, Shakespeare, Twain, Paine, London and other writers who's works have been banned or had taken out of school libraries at one time or another.

I think that is reasonable to consider some facts and ideas as age appropriate material. A 4 year old is not going to comprehend the concept of sexuality or chaos theory. But I think that censoring an idea or story because of the offence it may cause is a very dangerous thing for society.

[arod]

And another thing....imagine you are a teacher assigned to teach American Literature 1945-
Present. Could you do this and leave out Vietnam stories? Could you feel you had adequately and accurately covered Vietnam without reading anything that contained "profanity and violence"?

Maybe not. Tough toenails. They'll just have to wait till they're 18, or get the material that interests them through other means.

And since we're so anxious to parade blood and gore in front of high schoolers, let's have them read accurate and detailed descriptions of abortions while we're at it, shall we?

[arod]

Oh, the horror. Whole groups of students deprived of their God-given right to have some authority figure tell them what to think about what they read. What's the country coming to? :)


Have you ever been in a classroom? Do you think the teacher is not going to "tell them what to think about what they read" if they are reading Dick and Jane instead of Fallen Angels?


Of course not. How is that relevant?

[kathleen]

And since we're so anxious to parade blood and gore in front of high schoolers, let's have them read accurate and detailed descriptions of abortions while we're at it, shall we?


Or we can just place a bible in front of them. ;)

[Persephone]

And another thing....imagine you are a teacher assigned to teach American Literature 1945-
Present. Could you do this and leave out Vietnam stories? Could you feel you had adequately and accurately covered Vietnam without reading anything that contained "profanity and violence"?

Maybe not. Tough toenails. They'll just have to wait till they're 18, or get the material that interests them through other means.

And since we're so anxious to parade blood and gore in front of high schoolers, let's have them read accurate and detailed descriptions of abortions while we're at it, shall we?



So Vietnam is too bloody to talk about in high school? Great. Let's just bury it. It never happened. What about World War II, World War I, the Civil War? Nope. Violent. There was no war. Just a bad dream nobody is supposed to talk about. The world, after all, is sweetness and fucking roses.

[Persephone]

Oh, the horror. Whole groups of students deprived of their God-given right to have some authority figure tell them what to think about what they read. What's the country coming to? :)


Have you ever been in a classroom? Do you think the teacher is not going to "tell them what to think about what they read" if they are reading Dick and Jane instead of Fallen Angels?


Of course not. How is that relevant?



It's about as relevant as it was when you brought it up. ::)

[arod]

I don't have a problem with these "bannings". Parents have the right to control what goes into their child's mind as best they can; in this case the school board acts as their agent.

I can only thank God (destiny?, fate?) that as religious as my parents were, they didn't have a view such as this (at least not when it came to books and learning).
I can well imagine how my viewpoint would be different without exposure to Steinback, Shakespeare, Twain, Paine, London and other writers who's works have been banned or had taken out of school libraries at one time or another.

I think that is reasonable to consider some facts and ideas as age appropriate material. A 4 year old is not going to comprehend the concept of sexuality or chaos theory. But I think that censoring an idea or story because of the offence it may cause is a very dangerous thing for society.

I'm not sure we have a real disagreement. Your parents didn't let you read "The Happy Hooker" at age 13, did they? IOW, they controlled what you read, just as the school board is doing in loco parentis. Every parent will have different standards, as will every school board.

[arod]

Oh, the horror. Whole groups of students deprived of their God-given right to have some authority figure tell them what to think about what they read. What's the country coming to? :)


Have you ever been in a classroom? Do you think the teacher is not going to "tell them what to think about what they read" if they are reading Dick and Jane instead of Fallen Angels?


Of course not. How is that relevant?



It's about as relevant as it was when you brought it up. ::)


What I was getting at is your apparent belief that kids have not just the right to read the materials, but the right to be taught about them. If they're really interested, they don't need a teacher; and if they're not, it's a waste of time anyway.

[LanceALott]

Arod: They'll just have to wait till they're 18, or get the material that interests them through other means.

Lance: What in Hell gives fundamentalists or Christians or any other Nazi gang the right to select what to brainwash kids with until their mind is so damn closed a nuke could not budge it? It is obvious to me that you want to cheat those kids of anything that does not support your delusional Belief System (BS).

And there is a story of Vietnam that either gets through to those impressionable kids, or we damn sure will repeat it.

BTW, I am a Vietnam Vet, and a retired military officer that served in both the Air Force and Amry, so don't try to pull some patriotic/loyalty crap on me.

[Persephone]

I wouldn't want a school board deciding that my child could not get credit for reading a literary classic selected by the teacher...and by most teachers across the country.

Let the parents and the teachers decide these things.

[arod]

So Vietnam is too bloody to talk about in high school?

That's for the school board to figure out.

[Persephone]

What I was getting at is your apparent belief that kids have not just the right to read the materials, but the right to be taught about them. If they're really interested, they don't need a teacher; and if they're not, it's a waste of time anyway.



Why should students be forced into a position where they have to do extra work outside out school to get the same things other students are taught in school? Why should the school board say that one student cannot get credit for reading a novel that suits the assignment when another student can? Why should parents have to purchase outside of school what they expect their children to be taught in school?

Of course, all of these things will happen to a degree regardless of what a school board decides, but it is a damn shame if you ask me when you have a teach willing to teach and students willing to learn, but a board that will not allow it.

[Persephone]

So Vietnam is too bloody to talk about in high school?

That's for the school board to figure out.



No, it isn't. The students have to meet state requirements for graduation. The state requirements have to meet national standards. One county cannot just decide to do its own thing. What would you say if they banned stories about the American Revolution?

"let your wife" OAG? How about your wife is gonna make her own decision?


We're not talking about MY wife here. My wife not only works but makes more money than I do and I'm quite happy that she is ambitious and lives in a century where she's allowed the opportunities.

I was talking, hypothetically, to the dipshits that believe they can make the world better by ridding it of references to violence, profanity and denigration of women. Any time I hear from idiots like that I figure they are projecting their own hangups and actions onto everyone else. It is their own demons that they wish to protect everyone else from. It never occurs to them that the rest of us aren't plagued by their demons.

[arod]

Arod: They'll just have to wait till they're 18, or get the material that interests them through other means.

Lance: What in Hell gives fundamentalists or Christians or any other Nazi gang the right to select what to brainwash kids with until their mind is so damn closed a nuke could not budge it?

What do Christians have to do with it? Parents have the right to censor what their kids read, as any fool can see.

It is obvious to me that you want to cheat those kids of anything that does not support your delusional Belief System (BS).

I haven't said what should be banned and what shouldn't. I've just said the local school board has the right to do it, whether it's in San Francisco or some Bible belt town.

And there is a story of Vietnam that either gets through to those impressionable kids, or we damn sure will repeat it.

Guess that depends who tells the story, eh? ;)[/quote]

And since we're so anxious to parade blood and gore in front of high schoolers, let's have them read accurate and detailed descriptions of abortions while we're at it, shall we?


Why not? It is reality. By the time they reach high school they have graduated from a Walt Disney world view and can deal with some of the harsher realities.

[Persephone]

I have no problem whatsoever with a high school biology class looking at pictures of fetuses, aborted or otherwise. This is what they are there for...to learn biology. It is an appropriate time and environment to introduce students to a basic reality of life.

[arod]

So Vietnam is too bloody to talk about in high school?

That's for the school board to figure out.



No, it isn't. The students have to meet state requirements for graduation. The state requirements have to meet national standards. One county cannot just decide to do its own thing.

When some level of blood and gore becomes a national or state requirement in U.S. history courses, we'll have something to talk about. There's plenty of stuff on Viet Nam that doesn't have that.

What would you say if they banned stories about the American Revolution?

It would depend on the stories.

[arod]

I have no problem whatsoever with a high school biology class looking at pictures of fetuses, aborted or otherwise. This is what they are there for...to learn biology. It is an appropriate time and environment to introduce students to a basic reality of life.

Do you have a problem with that kid's parent having a problem with it? And if they do, why should anyone else's opinion hold sway over theirs?

[Persephone]

When some level of blood and gore becomes a national or state requirement in U.S. history courses, we'll have something to talk about. There's plenty of stuff on Viet Nam that doesn't have that.



Such as? I'm more than happy to read any works of literature you suggest on this topic that do it accurately and non-violently.

As for US History....do you think it is possible to tell what happened in Vietnam in a history class without gore and violence? Get real. What should the teacher say, for example, the first time a student says "what is napalm"?

[Persephone]

I have no problem whatsoever with a high school biology class looking at pictures of fetuses, aborted or otherwise. This is what they are there for...to learn biology. It is an appropriate time and environment to introduce students to a basic reality of life.

Do you have a problem with that kid's parent having a problem with it? And if they do, why should anyone else's opinion hold sway over theirs?


If parents don't want their teenagers to learn about anatomy, they should take them out of high school. Of course, the kid will probably drop out due to the pregnancy anyway.

[Thunder Bay]

Hey, arod;

If I recall correctly, you just came here from a board where tony and 3po were your school board; how'd ya like it? You're here, ain't cha? If you want the school board to do your job, you suck.

Kathleen axed you a question; answer up, bloho!

Lance is a free-thinker; you are a closed mind. Do you and HowardRoark live together? I think it's mighty white of Lance to let you stay here, don't you? Wow, freedom!

Come down to the inferno if you're so inclined; we'll chat for a while! ;D

[arod]

When some level of blood and gore becomes a national or state requirement in U.S. history courses, we'll have something to talk about. There's plenty of stuff on Viet Nam that doesn't have that.



Such as?

Damned if I know. :D

All I know is, I don't remember anything particularly bloody in what I learned abou the Revolutionary war in school.

I'm more than happy to read any works of literature you suggest on this topic that do it accurately and non-violently.

As for US History....do you think it is possible to tell what happened in Vietnam in a history class without gore and violence? Get real. What should the teacher say, for example, the first time a student says "what is napalm"?


Whatever the shool board allows her to say.

[arod]

Hey, arod;

If I recall correctly, you just came here from a board where tony and 3po were your school board; how'd ya like it?

I didn't - but I never questioned their right to run the board their way.

You're here, ain't cha?

I'm there too, in case you missed the fact Tony invited me back. ;)

If you want the school board to do your job, you suck.

If I were a parent, I'd want the board to do what I hired them to do.

Kathleen axed you a question; answer up, bloho!

What question did I miss, kathleen?[/quote]

[Persephone]

The Things They Carried without the profanity and violence.

"It was a beautiful jungle. We went for a long walk. Some people did not finish the walk. Fiddlesticks."


See? They don't need to read a whole book to get that. ::)

[arod]

So what is this thing between you and Lance, Arod? I'm awfully curious about your view. But hey, if it's old news and you don't want to bring it up I'm cool with that too. :)


It was bad enough he made Hitler out to be a Christian. It was a lot worse when he came to the defense of Otis, who tried to rationalize pedophilia. He topped it all off by using the "Pope" handle I allowed myself to be saddled with as an excuse to make a wisecrack - which evidently no one but he found funny - about me buggering little boys. I asked him once politely not to do that. He did it again, because once again he could not answer my argument on its own merits. That was enough. :)

[Lance]

;) By his own words, he considered himself one. Or let us put it this way. Without christianity (the church), the holocaust likely would not have happened.

As to Otis, that was the old debate about age of consent. From my POV, arod was running with a victorian age view of things. (Grandma was a virgin syndrome..see this discussion on this thread.) My POV was that folks mature at a different rate and that it is almost impossible to pick an age that fits "all". Sure, you can pick an age that fits your idea of morals. But do remember that not that long ago, 14 year-olds were commonly married and running households. It is our modern society that has delayed "adult age" and NOT biology.

And the buggering thing..I do apologize for that as you took it harder than intended. But you seemed so fixated with it.. ;) ;D

;) By his own words, he considered himself one. Or let us put it this way. Without christianity (the church), the holocaust likely would not have happened.

As to Otis, that was the old debate about age of consent. From my POV, arod was running with a victorian age view of things. (Grandma was a virgin syndrome..see this discussion on this thread.) My POV was that folks mature at a different rate and that it is almost impossible to pick an age that fits "all". Sure, you can pick an age that fits your idea of morals. But do remember that not that long ago, 14 year-olds were commonly married and running households. It is our modern society that has delayed "adult age" and NOT biology.

And the buggering thing..I do apologize for that as you took it harder than intended. But you seemed so fixated with it.. ;) ;D


Christian is such an overused word it means next to nothing. Hitler stands on his actions and in my book action speaks louder than words. I don't compare you (lance) to a hacker even though both know a lot about computers.

[jeny]

Let's disband the whole public school system.

[LanceALott]

LanceALott: And there is a story of Vietnam that either gets through to those impressionable kids, or we damn sure will repeat it.


Arod: Guess that depends who tells the story, eh

LAL: Absolutely it depends on who tells it, and as an eyewitness and insider to that catastrophe for my country, I am entitled to tell it like I saw it.

Yet, when I publish my story "The Vietnam Syndrome: The Answer" guys like you will line up to try to ban it, and it will not be because of gore or violence, but because I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of guys like you, bulley-people who controled the decision making process for the USA back then, people who adhered to the Nazi philosophy and controled the decision making process of America behiind the scenes, incompetent people who still want the truth covered up to cover their own ass and to keep the power of those who still adhere to the failed Nazi philosophy.

And Suth, in spite of what we already know, one more book needs to be written becaquse there is a lot more behind the failure than has gotten home so far, and the stamp of secret still dangerously keeps Americans in the dark.

[LanceALott]

LanceALott: Arod, you should know Lance and LanceALott (sometimes LAL) are different posters. But I agree with Lance on this one point:

"It was bad enough he made Hitler out to be a Christian."

LAL: Not only did Hitler present himself as a Christian, but the German Luthern Church preached from their pulpit that Hitler was The Messiah. And in your controlling, book banning, brainwashing of the young philosophy, I see the same philosophy as Hiter at work.

Furthermore, if you are a fundamentalist "Christian" I asgree with your need to not expose your kids to other, more rational, Beliefs; because given a choice, they will flush your crap down the toilet.

[arod]

LanceALott: And there is a story of Vietnam that either gets through to those impressionable kids, or we damn sure will repeat it.


Arod: Guess that depends who tells the story, eh

LAL: Absolutely it depends on who tells it, and as an eyewitness and insider to that catastrophe for my country, I am entitled to tell it like I saw it.

Yet, when I publish my story "The Vietnam Syndrome: The Answer" guys like you will line up to try to ban it, and it will not be because of gore or violence, but because I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of guys like you, bulley-people who controled the decision making process for the USA back then, people who adhered to the Nazi philosophy and controled the decision making process of America behiind the scenes, incompetent people who still want the truth covered up to cover their own ass and to keep the power of those who still adhere to the failed Nazi philosophy.

Most of the reactionary drivel I've seen along these lines at least has the saving grace of being provocatively inflammatory to obscure the speciousness of its allegations. This doesn't quite make the grade. ;)

[SENOR DON GATO]

The George County School Board has banned three books, including John Steinbeck's novel Of Mice and Men.

The five-member board on Monday also unanimously banned Fallen Angels and The Things They Carried, two novels about the Vietnam War.

New board member Larry McDonald, who initiated the vote, said he was concerned about profanity and violence in the books.


http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0301/08/m16.html


This pisses me off. In one more year, the boys in the class that is not allowed to read Vietnam novels will be required to register for Selective Service. At what point, are they old enough to be told what war is really like?







I predict that the members of this school board will soon eat crow - or be replaced. It is obvious they have overstepped their boundary and have taken the decision away from the teachers and the parents.

Most school board members are not educators. They are local business people and community members. Many school boards are voluntary and are not compensated. This decision was totally unacceptable. If we required a teaching certification for our children's educators - then we should abide by their decisions - especially when they are already allowing the parents a part in the process.

What we have in the article is a rouge board - one who dictates. A good school board hires administrative personel that come highly recommended and do their job well. Anytime a board steps over the line - as this one has - it's time to show them the door. Quickly.

[arod]

LanceALott: Arod, you should know Lance and LanceALott (sometimes LAL) are different posters. But I agree with Lance on this one point:

"It was bad enough he made Hitler out to be a Christian."

LAL: Not only did Hitler present himself as a Christian,

So what?

but the German Luthern Church preached from their pulpit that Hitler was The Messiah. And in your controlling, book banning, brainwashing of the young philosophy, I see the same philosophy as Hiter at work.

Hitler wanted parents to be able to control the influences on their own kids?

Furthermore, if you are a fundamentalist "Christian" I asgree with your need to not expose your kids to other, more rational, Beliefs; because given a choice, they will flush your crap down the toilet.

You have already had, and likely will have in the future, ample opportunity to show my ideas up for the "crap" you think they are. So far, your efforts have had the effect of a volley of overripe strawberries fired at a battleship.[/quote]

[SENOR DON GATO]

LanceALott: Arod, you should know Lance and LanceALott (sometimes LAL) are different posters. But I agree with Lance on this one point:

"It was bad enough he made Hitler out to be a Christian."

LAL: Not only did Hitler present himself as a Christian, but the German Luthern Church preached from their pulpit that Hitler was The Messiah. And in your controlling, book banning, brainwashing of the young philosophy, I see the same philosophy as Hiter at work.

Furthermore, if you are a fundamentalist "Christian" I asgree with your need to not expose your kids to other, more rational, Beliefs; because given a choice, they will flush your crap down the toilet.





Of course Hitler was a Christian. Anti-semitism is firmly grounded in the New Testament.

But it is not suprising that today's Christians try to distance themselves from the man - he gives them a bad name, albeit one they deserve as a group.

Denying it does not make it so.

[SENOR DON GATO]

;) By his own words, he considered himself one. Or let us put it this way. Without christianity (the church), the holocaust likely would not have happened.

As to Otis, that was the old debate about age of consent. From my POV, arod was running with a victorian age view of things. (Grandma was a virgin syndrome..see this discussion on this thread.) My POV was that folks mature at a different rate and that it is almost impossible to pick an age that fits "all". Sure, you can pick an age that fits your idea of morals. But do remember that not that long ago, 14 year-olds were commonly married and running households. It is our modern society that has delayed "adult age" and NOT biology.

And the buggering thing..I do apologize for that as you took it harder than intended. But you seemed so fixated with it.. ;) ;D


I am not aware of the debate that caused this rift - but in my experience - if someone objects very strongly to an accusation - they have found it has struck a little too close to home.

Again, I do not know if that is the case here - but there is some truth behind the saying, "The gentleman doth protest too much."

[arod]

Of course Hitler was a Christian. Anti-semitism is firmly grounded in the New Testament.

Really? How does the fact that He was a Jew buttress the idea of anti-semitism?

But it is not suprising that today's Christians try to distance themselves from the man - he gives them a bad name, albeit one they deserve as a group.

No doubt that is why so many Christians are pro-Israel.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Of course Hitler was a Christian. Anti-semitism is firmly grounded in the New Testament.

Really? How does the fact that He was a Jew buttress the idea of anti-semitism?

He who? Hitler? Jesus? Clarify.

But it is not suprising that today's Christians try to distance themselves from the man - he gives them a bad name, albeit one they deserve as a group.

No doubt that is why so many Christians are pro-Israel.


Silly, shallow comment. The majority of Christians are NOT pro-Israel. Fundmental Christians are. They represent a minority of Christianity.

[arod]

Of course Hitler was a Christian. Anti-semitism is firmly grounded in the New Testament.

Really? How does the fact that He was a Jew buttress the idea of anti-semitism?

He who? Hitler? Jesus? Clarify.

Jesus, of course. I wouldn't use a capitalized pronoun for Hitler, and he obviously wasn't a Jew. ;)

But it is not suprising that today's Christians try to distance themselves from the man - he gives them a bad name, albeit one they deserve as a group.

No doubt that is why so many Christians are pro-Israel.


Silly, shallow comment. The majority of Christians are NOT pro-Israel. Fundmental Christians are. They represent a minority of Christianity.

The obvious point is that the very people you would most love to villify by associating them with Hitler are those who find anti-semitism most repugnant.[/quote]

[SENOR DON GATO]

Of course Hitler was a Christian. Anti-semitism is firmly grounded in the New Testament.

Really? How does the fact that He was a Jew buttress the idea of anti-semitism?

He who? Hitler? Jesus? Clarify.

Jesus, of course. I wouldn't use a capitalized pronoun for Hitler, and he obviously wasn't a Jew. ;)

But it is not suprising that today's Christians try to distance themselves from the man - he gives them a bad name, albeit one they deserve as a group.

No doubt that is why so many Christians are pro-Israel.


Silly, shallow comment. The majority of Christians are NOT pro-Israel. Fundmental Christians are. They represent a minority of Christianity.

The obvious point is that the very people you would most love to villify by associating them with Hitler are those who find anti-semitism most repugnant.
[/quote]

That is a relatively modern sentiment. The History of the Christian Church is steeped in the persecution of the Jewish people.

Your question concerning Jesus is one often thrown out by Christians who do not know their bible. Just because Jesus was BORN a Jew - does not mean that he recognized their ways. He, in fact, denounced them many times, as did Paul. They were the ones who did not do his bidding - did not allow him to rule over them. They were the Pharisees and Saducees.

Marx was also a Jew; both grandfather's having been rabbis, and yet we see how he treated many of the Jews. Your comparision is invalid.

[arod]

And the buggering thing..I do apologize for that as you took it harder than intended. But you seemed so fixated with it.. ;) ;D

Still not funny, twit. :)

[arod]

Your question concerning Jesus is one often thrown out by Christians who do not know their bible. Just because Jesus was BORN a Jew - does not mean that he recognized their ways.

Of course it doesn't, you idiot. The fact that He was an observant Jew DOES mean that, however.

He, in fact, denounced them many times, as did Paul.

He denounced their hypocritical parsing of the law, never the law itself:

Mt 23:23 -

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


They were the ones who did not do his bidding - did not allow him to rule over them. They were the Pharisees and Saducees.

Marx was also a Jew; both grandfather's having been rabbis, and yet we see how he treated many of the Jews. Your comparision is invalid.

Just as there are Christians in name only, there are Jews in name only. Is that too complicated for you?

[LanceALott]

Arod: You have already had, and likely will have in the future, ample opportunity to show my ideas up for the "crap" you think they are.

LaL: Yes, and some who read here have seen the crap, but I never expected you to even smell it. You having been one, I think fundamentalists are highly dysfunctional people who believe in Gods that are not real, and they are so hoplessly dysfunctional they actually need those false Gods to survive.

To give up their delusions and face the real world is beyond them. They are more hopelessly addicted to their religion than the heroine addict.

I am not out to save them from themselves, that's nearly impossible; but the young can be saved, but not by the same kind of mind control and brainwashing the book-banning fundamentalmentist want to do, but by exposing those kids to sane ideas as well as the insane ones so they can chose to live in the world of reality, which the fundamentalists are afraid they will choose.

Arod: So far, your efforts have had the effect of a volley of overripe strawberries fired at a battleship.

LaL: I know, and I am sorry for you. But there is hope. I made it back to reality, and it is much better.

[Thunder Bay]

arod;

Your answer "I didn't" sums it up; thanks for answering Kathleen's question; I don't care if you are there and Tony Birch still sucks 'cause he's a banner, too. As for Lance, get some thicker skin, arod; Wendy's got your cheese. ;D

[arod]

Arod: You have already had, and likely will have in the future, ample opportunity to show my ideas up for the "crap" you think they are.

LaL: Yes, and some who read here have seen the crap, but I never expected you to even smell it. You having been one, I think fundamentalists

Where you got the idea I was ever a fundy I don't know, but I ain't, never was.

are highly dysfunctional people who believe in Gods that are not real, and they are so hoplessly dysfunctional they actually need those false Gods to survive.

There's an original thought. :)

Arod: So far, your efforts have had the effect of a volley of overripe strawberries fired at a battleship.

LaL: I know, and I am sorry for you. But there is hope. I made it back to reality, and it is much better.

If you think there is hope for me to get back to what you call reality, you can start by answering the question you either missed or ignored:

And in your controlling, book banning, brainwashing of the young philosophy, I see the same philosophy as Hiter at work.


Hitler wanted parents to be able to control the influences on their own kids?

[wendy]

Christian is such an overused word it means next to nothing. Hitler stands on his actions and in my book action speaks louder than words.

Interesting point. So I guess you don't believe all Muslims are murderous thugs.

Anyway, regarding the word "Christian", are you aware that Deputy Prime Minister Tarik Aziz, the number 2 guy in Iraq is a "Christian"? Don't hear much about that, do you? ;)

[wendy]

People who lead the charge to ban books are already banning books for the kids in THEIR home. They want the power to do it on a district level so they can ban books for OTHER PEOPLE's kids.

[sodaknomad]

Try this site (http://www.ncac.org/), Wendy. It should have most, if not all of what you might be looking for.

Here's a search engine page (http://dir.yahoo.com/Arts/Humanities/Literature/Banned_Books/) for other sources.

[arod]

People who lead the charge to ban books are already banning books for the kids in THEIR home. They want the power to do it on a district level so they can ban books for OTHER PEOPLE's kids.

No way can you properly draw that inference. Under the rules as they stand, the only way they can control what THEIR kids are exposed to in school is by constraining the school board to ban certain things. If they CAN'T ban certain things, then there is no justification for the banning of pornography, Neo-Nazi literature, or the like. Who are you to decide where they draw that line?

The only way I see around this is, as jeny said, ditch the public school system. It was a rotten idea from the start.

[Persephone]

People who lead the charge to ban books are already banning books for the kids in THEIR home. They want the power to do it on a district level so they can ban books for OTHER PEOPLE's kids.

No way can you properly draw that inference. Under the rules as they stand, the only way they can control what THEIR kids are exposed to in school is by constraining the school board to ban certain things. If they CAN'T ban certain things, then there is no justification for the banning of pornography, Neo-Nazi literature, or the like. Who are you to decide where they draw that line?

The only way I see around this is, as jeny said, ditch the public school system. It was a rotten idea from the start.



And lions and tigers and bears, oh my. :)

[truelies]

Let's disband the whole public school system.


Seems reasonable to me.

Have you and your significant other thought at all about who if anyone you will delegate the education of your daughter to?

Christian is such an overused word it means next to nothing. Hitler stands on his actions and in my book action speaks louder than words.

Interesting point. So I guess you don't believe all Muslims are murderous thugs.

Anyway, regarding the word "Christian", are you aware that Deputy Prime Minister Tarik Aziz, the number 2 guy in Iraq is a "Christian"? Don't hear much about that, do you? ;)


I've never considered Islam a violent religion because of the actions of a few, anymore than Hitler personifies Christians.

I had no idea Aziz was Christian, how about that!

[truelies]

The BOE is elected to set District Policy. If the voters are unhappy with their efforts they will TURN THEM OUT OF OFFICE!!!!!! It is really none of our concern how the community in question runs its schools. None of us live there.

[sodaknomad]

People who lead the charge to ban books are already banning books for the kids in THEIR home. They want the power to do it on a district level so they can ban books for OTHER PEOPLE's kids.


No way can you properly draw that inference. Under the rules as they stand, the only way they can control what THEIR kids are exposed to in school is by constraining the school board to ban certain things. If they CAN'T ban certain things, then there is no justification for the banning of pornography, Neo-Nazi literature, or the like. Who are you to decide where they draw that line?

They already are doing that. :P


The only way I see around this is, as jeny said, ditch the public school system. It was a rotten idea from the start.


Wouldn't that be sweet?

[wendy]

No way can you properly draw that inference. Under the rules as they stand, the only way they can control what THEIR kids are exposed to in school is by constraining the school board to ban certain things. If they CAN'T ban certain things, then there is no justification for the banning of pornography, Neo-Nazi literature, or the like. Who are you to decide where they draw that line?



Bullshit Arod. Haven't you ever heard of "opt out" policies?

If they don't want their kids to be exposed to anything that doesn't fit in their narrow ideology, that's fine. They can remove their kids from the school system and home school them with 1800's text books and bible stories. The parents who wish to ban LITERATURE not PORN (silly argument, pope. I expected better of you) have NO RIGHT to make that decision for ALL parents. If you don't want to be a part of the world, remove yourself. Don't expect it to change FOR you.

[Persephone]

The other point here is that the class in question was an 11th grade college prep class. What kind of college prep is it to ban literary classics? I guess we aren't trying to send anyone to the big leagues from George County. Are we going to ban Romeo and Juliet if a parent says it promotes suicide and disobedience?

[arod]

If you don't want to be a part of the world, remove yourself. Don't expect it to change FOR you.

That one cuts both ways. People who don't like the way the local board runs things can either throw the rascals out or get themselves the hell out of Dodge. What my local school board does in this regard is none of your business, and vice versa.

[Persephone]

Here is an economic profile of George County, Mississippi. In addition to what you will find here, 8.3 % of the adult population has a college education.


http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/regional/bearfacts/bf1/28/b128039.htm

[wendy]

I had no idea Aziz was Christian, how about that!


A couple of things you'll never hear in the media:

Iraq isn't an Islamic nation.

There are more Christians living in Iraq than there are in Israel.

[wendy]

Arod, what fool gave you the impression we live in a democracy where the majority rules?

[arod]

Arod, what fool gave you the impression we live in a democracy where the majority rules?

It's a half truth. For instance, there is nothing in the constitution preventing public nudity in a city; but the local majorities have decided, for the most part, to make it illegal, without regard to anyone's perceived right to do otherwise.

Not sure I'm getting your drift here, if the truth were told.

[wendy]

Arod, do you understand there is a difference between walking downtown in your birthday suit and banning books because they don't reflect your personal "values'?

[truelies]

Arod, do you understand there is a difference between walking downtown in your birthday suit and banning books because they don't reflect your personal "values'?


Not that much difference really. On the one hand (books) some adults have concerns about what impressionable young people are exposed to. On the other hand (public nudity) some adults have concerns about what impressionable young people are exposed to. In either case a community standard which is tolerable to most people is established.

[Persephone]

Stop and think about this particular situation for a minute. The per capita income is slightly less than $20,000 a year. Only 8.3% of the adult population has a college education. More than like nearly all of the people who have been to college work in either education or health care. By far, the majority of teenagers who have a chance at college would be the first generation in their families to go to college. Many of them probably have parents who cannot read well enough to finish any novel, much less a controversial work of literature.

As an educator, how far would you be willing to bend to the rule of an uneducated public when you were faced with the task of helping students prepare to meet the outside world?

[arod]

Arod, do you understand there is a difference between walking downtown in your birthday suit and banning books because they don't reflect your personal "values'?

Of course there's a difference, but there is also the similarity that both are enforcements of community standards.

And I have to admit, I don't get the distinction you drew earlier between pornography and literature, since each has been mistaken for the other.

[truelies]

[quote author=Suth

As an educator, how far would you be willing to bend to the rule of an uneducated public when you were faced with the task of helping students prepare to meet the outside world?

[/quote]

Well considering that THEY are the people who pay your salary, I would hope that you would have the minimum amount of repectfulness and trust worthyness to honor their wishes, that or seek work in a community more in line with your values.

[Persephone]

Well considering that THEY are the people who pay your salary, I would hope that you would have the minimum amount of repectfulness and trust worthyness to honor their wishes, that or seek work in a community more in line with your values.



You would call it trustworthiness to honor "their" wishes even if it meant not meeting the college preparation guidelines of the state and the universities within the state?

[wendy]

From the original article:

Principal Paul Wallace said students may choose which book to read, and are sent home with a form for their parents to sign with acknowledgment of their selection. Parents are also informed of the books' contents.

Wallace said the book has been used since the 2000-2001 year, but no complaints have been made until now. He said the teacher chooses the books and they are approved through the principal's office. He said alternate reading materials are provided if a parent is concerned.

"The concern of the English department is that as long as we're providing options, as long as the teacher explains to the student things that might be offensive in a particular book, it's up to them and their parents to make a decision as to whether or not that book is appropriate for what we're trying to do," he said.


What we have, is a school board that has taken it upon itself to parent ALL the children in the district.

Other reading options exist. The parents are notified of the content of the books but that isn't GOOD ENOUGH for the members of the school board. They wish to actively PREVENT the study of any book that goes against THEIR view of what the kids should read.

The school board is out of line.

[truelies]

[quote author=wendya

The school board is out of line.

[/quote]

According to you perhaps, BUT as you are not a member of that Community your opinion of what is right for them carries correspondingly little weight.

[truelies]

[quote author=Suth

You would call it trustworthiness to honor "their" wishes even if it meant not meeting the college preparation guidelines of the state and the universities within the state?

[/quote]

Suth exactly how is this BOE violating State guideleines? Are you saying that the three books are mandatory reads?

[Persephone]

[quote author=Suth

You would call it trustworthiness to honor "their" wishes even if it meant not meeting the college preparation guidelines of the state and the universities within the state?



Suth exactly how is this BOE violating State guideleines? Are you saying that the three books are mandatory reads?
[/quote]


These are classics we are talking about, not just something one teacher picked at random. The authors are on the curriculum guidelines for the state. Other books by the same authors contain the same types of things that have come under fire here. Other books on the same subjects contain the same types of things...

[LanceALott]

Arad: Hitler wanted parents to be able to control the influences on their own kids?

Lance: no, actually Hitler wanted to be able to control the influences on all the kids in school, not just his kids, just like the Nazi-lunatics who want to ban books in America.

Don't try to put words in my mouth, nor gloss over yours.

[LanceALott]

What? are you telling me I can't go running naked in the streets to protest banned books?

What is this world coming to?

[truelies]

[quote author=Suth

You would call it trustworthiness to honor "their" wishes even if it meant not meeting the college preparation guidelines of the state and the universities within the state?



Suth exactly how is this BOE violating State guideleines? Are you saying that the three books are mandatory reads?



These are classics we are talking about, not just something one teacher picked at random. The authors are on the curriculum guidelines for the state. Other books by the same authors contain the same types of things that have come under fire here. Other books on the same subjects contain the same types of things...
[/quote]

I guess bottom line the problem is so called public education where some are taxed to pay for the indoctrination of their children with the belifs of others who have expropriated the State checkbook to promote personal doctrines.

[wendy]

According to you perhaps, BUT as you are not a member of that Community your opinion of what is right for them carries correspondingly little weight.

It carries as much weight as those of you who support the book banners.

[arod]

What we have, is a school board that has taken it upon itself to parent ALL the children in the district.

So what's the problem? That is the basis for the whole public school system, that the population at large has a compelling interest in seeing that other people's children are educated. That being the case, it also has a compelling interest in HOW they are educated. We necessitated such meddling when we mandated public education.

[truelies]

According to you perhaps, BUT as you are not a member of that Community your opinion of what is right for them carries correspondingly little weight.

It carries as much weight as those of you who support the book banners.


I have no dog in this fight. I am perfectly willing to let the good Citizens of the great State of Mississippi work things out for themselves.

[Persephone]

According to you perhaps, BUT as you are not a member of that Community your opinion of what is right for them carries correspondingly little weight.

It carries as much weight as those of you who support the book banners.


I have no dog in this fight. I am perfectly willing to let the good Citizens of the great State of Mississippi work things out for themselves.



I am one of those citizens. I prefer not to live in a world where people who didn't finish high school get to dictate that the kids in my family cannot get credit in school for reading the same books kids read in school all across the country.

[arod]

According to you perhaps, BUT as you are not a member of that Community your opinion of what is right for them carries correspondingly little weight.

It carries as much weight as those of you who support the book banners.

I've made no judgment on this particular banning. It would be no different if it was one of Limbaugh's books that got banned. If I had kids in a school district that did that, I'd raise hell with the board, but not on the basis of censorship.

[Persephone]

According to you perhaps, BUT as you are not a member of that Community your opinion of what is right for them carries correspondingly little weight.

It carries as much weight as those of you who support the book banners.

I've made no judgment on this particular banning. It would be no different if it was one of Limbaugh's books that got banned. If I had kids in a school district that did that, I'd raise hell with the board, but not on the basis of censorship.



Last I checked Limbaugh wasn't writing literary novels. But tell me anyway...what would your basis be if not censorship?

[arod]

Arad: Hitler wanted parents to be able to control the influences on their own kids?

Lance: no, actually Hitler wanted to be able to control the influences on all the kids in school, not just his kids, just like the Nazi-lunatics who want to ban books in America.


Tell you what, Einstein, if you take control away from the parents, somebody's gonna have it. Guess who? Teachers and administrators - aka the state, that's who. If that ain't Hitlerian, I don't know what is.

[truelies]

[quote author=Suth

I am one of those citizens. I prefer not to live in a world where people who didn't finish high school get to dictate that the kids in my family cannot get credit in school for reading the same books kids read in school all across the country.

[/quote]

Careful now!

Are you saying that these BOE members are NOT HS grads ? OR...................

That Americans who pay taxes but have not finished HS should be barred from the Public Square in favor of those who are more educated?

[sodaknomad]

Bullshit Arod. Haven't you ever heard of "opt out" policies?

If they don't want their kids to be exposed to anything that doesn't fit in their narrow ideology, that's fine. They can remove their kids from the school system and home school them with 1800's text books and bible stories. The parents who wish to ban LITERATURE not PORN (silly argument, pope. I expected better of you) have NO RIGHT to make that decision for ALL parents. If you don't want to be a part of the world, remove yourself. Don't expect it to change FOR you.


You know, Wendy, Right-Between-the-Cheeks promised to leave NoPC when [s]he foud a "not stupid" quote from you [which, IMHO, came a log time ago.] Maybe this time [s]he'll catch the drift.

I, too, don't believe in censorship in schools. If the kiddies can read Heather's Two Mommies, they should be allowed to read Little Town on the Prairie.

[truelies]

[quote author=Suth

Last I checked Limbaugh wasn't writing literary novels.

[/quote]

The stuff Rush writes is WAYYYYYYYYY better than that Faulkner guy for instance. Much more inspiring. A modern Classic.

[wendy]

Careful now!

Are you saying that these BOE members are NOT HS grads ? OR...................

That Americans who pay taxes but have not finished HS should be barred from the Public Square in favor of those who are more educated?


I don't think that is what she's saying at all but I'm sure you can understand the insanity of the uneducated dictating the standards for education.

[arod]

Last I checked Limbaugh wasn't writing literary novels. But tell me anyway...what would your basis be if not censorship?


It would be symptomatic of the mindset of the board. I wouldn't want my kid taught by anyone who thinks Rush is a hatemongering bigot.

[Persephone]

Careful now!

Are you saying that these BOE members are NOT HS grads ? OR...................

That Americans who pay taxes but have not finished HS should be barred from the Public Square in favor of those who are more educated?



What I'm saying is that this is a county that is extremely poor because it is extremely uneducated. The only chance for improvement of economic conditions is through education. If this is to happen, the education offered within the county has to be in line with the rest of the state and even the rest of the country.

I would not want my child held back because others were not willing to allow "standard" education in the county.

If these students are not exposed to the materials they are expected to have read when they get to college, they have a limited chance of success. In which case, they work at the chicken houses or haul pulpwood. If this is what they want, why are they holding up 11th grade literature for the ones who want to move on to something else?

[truelies]

[quote author=wendya

I don't think that is what she's saying at all but I'm sure you can understand the insanity of the uneducated dictating the standards for education.

[/quote]

Given that the ranks of Socialism are filled with cretins who have a Masters or a Doctorate, I am not at all sure that being 'educated' in any way confers wisdom.

[Persephone]

[quote author=Suth

Last I checked Limbaugh wasn't writing literary novels.



The stuff Rush writes is WAYYYYYYYYY better than that Faulkner guy for instance. Much more inspiring. A modern Classic.
[/quote]

::)

[truelies]

[quote author=Suth

Last I checked Limbaugh wasn't writing literary novels.



The stuff Rush writes is WAYYYYYYYYY better than that Faulkner guy for instance. Much more inspiring. A modern Classic.


::)
[/quote]

I deliver a solid zing and ALL I get is a piddly little roll of the eyes??????? >:( :( :o

[sodaknomad]

It's a half truth. For instance, there is nothing in the constitution preventing public nudity in a city; but the local majorities have decided, for the most part, to make it illegal, without regard to anyone's perceived right to do otherwise.


Now, you're getting into State and local rights, which is a little off topic.

[Persephone]

It would be symptomatic of the mindset of the board. I wouldn't want my kid taught by anyone who thinks Rush is a hatemongering bigot.


Rush is an entertainer. I like Lewis Grizzard, but I'm not going to assign him to a literature class.

[Persephone]

I deliver a solid zing and ALL I get is a piddly little roll of the eyes??????? >:( :( :o


::) :)

[truelies]

I deliver a solid zing and ALL I get is a piddly little roll of the eyes??????? >:( :( :o


::) :)


Thank you. I feel a little better.

[Persephone]

http://www.ala.org/bbooks/images/2002yabkmk.gif

[sodaknomad]

[quote author=Suth

Last I checked Limbaugh wasn't writing literary novels.



The stuff Rush writes is WAYYYYYYYYY better than that Faulkner guy for instance. Much more inspiring. A modern Classic.


::)


I deliver a solid zing and ALL I get is a piddly little roll of the eyes??????? >:( :( :o
[/quote]

What zing??? ::)

[truelies]

[quote author=Suth

Last I checked Limbaugh wasn't writing literary novels.



The stuff Rush writes is WAYYYYYYYYY better than that Faulkner guy for instance. Much more inspiring. A modern Classic.


::)


I deliver a solid zing and ALL I get is a piddly little roll of the eyes??????? >:( :( :o


What zing??? ::)
[/quote]

One that all but an English Lit Prof from the South would miss.

[wendy]

One that all but an English Lit Prof from the South would miss.


It wasn't that funny.

I doubt the rest of the country understands the South's love affair with Faulkner.

[Satan]

I'm surprised that Lewis Grizzard isn't required reading in my county. ::)

So, how old were you when you read Lady Chatterly's Lover? ;D

[Persephone]

So, how old were you when you read Lady Chatterly's Lover? ;D



Are you asking arod? :o

I'd love to hear him...uh...expound upon this matter.

[SENOR DON GATO]

So, how old were you when you read Lady Chatterly's Lover? ;D



Are you asking arod? :o

I'd love to hear him...uh...expound upon this matter.


Arod? Read Lady Chatterly's Lover? Yeah, right.

[arod]

So, how old were you when you read Lady Chatterly's Lover? ;D



Are you asking arod? :o

I'd love to hear him...uh...expound upon this matter.


Never read it. Somehow, I doubt it was racier than Stephen King's stuff. ;)

Here is the website for the National Coalition Against Censorship

www.ncac.org

[SENOR DON GATO]

So, how old were you when you read Lady Chatterly's Lover? ;D



Are you asking arod? :o

I'd love to hear him...uh...expound upon this matter.


Never read it. Somehow, I doubt it was racier than Stephen King's stuff. ;)


Absolutely no suprise!

[Satan]

Never read it. Somehow, I doubt it was racier than Stephen King's stuff. ;)


I didn't read it until I was in my 20's. Even then, I was shocked. I can imagine people in the 1920's getting a severe case of the vapors from it.

Never read it. Somehow, I doubt it was racier than Stephen King's stuff. ;)


I didn't read it until I was in my 20's. Even then, I was shocked. I can imagine people in the 1920's getting a severe case of the vapors from it.


So arod would probably drop where he sat?