View Full Version : Heterosexual adults still aren't getting tested for HIV
Heterosexual adults still aren't getting tested for HIV (http://sanantonio.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/2003/11/24/daily12.html)
Despite the world attention given to HIV and AIDS, the majority of heterosexual adults have never been tested for the deadly virus, according to a newly released study.
Six out of 10, or 59 percent, of heterosexual adults report that they have never been tested for HIV, compared to only a third (35 percent) of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) adults.
The findings are the result of a nationwide Witeck-Combs Communications/Harris Interactive poll of 2,056 adults. The survey's authors say the results are timely because of World AIDS Day, which is observed on Dec. 1.
Witeck-Combs is a strategic public relations and marketing firm with an emphasis on the GLBT market as well as health and disability issues. Harris Interactive, a market research and consulting firm, is the publisher of the Harris Poll.
Two thirds of young adults aged 18 to 24 have never been tested for HIV. Fifty-eight percent of African Americans and 45 percent of Hispanics -- both populations disproportionately affected by HIV/AIDS -- indicate they have been tested for HIV at least once, compared to only one-third of white Americans.
Part of the problem is that the majority of heterosexual and GLBT respondents mentioned that their health care provider did not discuss HIV/AIDS testing and/or prevention with them during their last medical visit.
Furthermore, eight out of 10 heterosexual adults say they do not get tested because they did not consider themselves at risk for HIV, perhaps suggesting that more HIV/AIDS prevention education is needed for heterosexual Americans, the report states.
"We found that complacency about HIV risk continues to be widespread among all populations and demographics," notes Darin Johnson, vice president for Witeck-Combs.
"It is particularly alarming that 22 years into the AIDS epidemic, we are still faced with fundamental misunderstandings about HIV and AIDS," says Ana Oliveira, executive director of Gay Men's Health Crisis.
"Eighty percent of heterosexuals are not getting tested because AIDS is still considered by many to be a 'gay' disease. However, HIV is contingent on risk behavior, and does not discriminate," Oliveira adds.
I have never been tested, officially. I'm sure they test blood for HIV when you donate, but I have absolutely no reason to belive I am HIV positive, so why should I get tested?
I have never been tested, officially. I'm sure they test blood for HIV when you donate, but I have absolutely no reason to belive I am HIV positive, so why should I get tested?
You've been tested. You just don't know it...or realize it. When you had your last baby, they took blood from you, sent it to the lab and screened it for blood diseases.
I think MADG's post is somewhat misleading. It's kind of like if you haven't specifically been tested for HIV, you haven't been tested...which, we know is bullshit.
You've been tested. You just don't know it...or realize it. When you had your last baby, they took blood from you, sent it to the lab and screened it for blood diseases.
I think MADG's post is somewhat misleading. It's kind of like if you haven't specifically been tested for HIV, you haven't been tested...which, we know is bullshit.
Come to think of it, I bet I was tested again a few months ago, when they did the initial blood screen for pregnancy. But I have never gone to a clinic to be tested.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:19 PM
We went together and got it done before we slept together at the start of our relationship.
Every new couple should be encouraged to make such a decision.
Every new couple should be encouraged to make such a decision.
Depending on their sexual history. ;)
Depending on their sexual history. ;)
One never knows what "The Love of Your LIfe" is poking.
One never knows what "The Love of Your LIfe" is poking.
I suppose that is ultimately true.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:24 PM
Depending on their sexual history. ;)
I suppose that should be a consideration. ;D
But only if there was no sexual contact of any type. Some people may think they know their partners and assume they are safe but sometimes they aren't.
That's when I found out about my STD. I had no idea I was "infected". I had no idea that my ex had cheated on me. It was quite a shock. :o
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:27 PM
I'm sure they test blood for HIV when you donate.....
They certainly do.
They also are suppose to contact you if your results are positive.
They certainly do.
They also are suppose to contact you if your results are positive.
Oh good. ;D I knew they tested the blood of course, but I didn't know if they would contact the donor. It has never been a chief concern of mine.
julianna
11-25-2003, 01:31 PM
You are also tested for it when you purchase life insurance. They tested me when we purchased the new policy for my business partner and myself in case either one of us kicks off.
Just a "few" incidentals that the poll biasedly ommitted.
Conclusion: Piece of shit poll.
Example of polls like this...
I have never been "tested" for competenece to drive on a freeway at 65 miles per hour, therefore, I am incompetent to drive on a freeway.
::)
You are also tested for it when you purchase life insurance. They tested me when we purchased the new policy for my business partner and myself in case either one of us kicks off.
I don't recall my husband having to be tested when he got our life insurance policy.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:40 PM
Conclusion: Piece of shit poll.
Maybe it is. Nevertheless, I think the point made should be taken to heart. "Many still consider AIDS a gay disease"? Are people really that stupid? Or is the educational system so bad?
It's these kinds of misconceptions that must be corrected in order to save lives.
Maybe it is. Nevertheless, I think the point made should be taken to heart. "Many still consider AIDS a gay disease"? Are people really that stupid? Or is the educational system so bad?
It's these kinds of misconceptions that must be corrected in order to save lives.
That's not why I never got tested...and I doubt a large majority of people actually think that.
That's not why I never got tested...and I doubt a large majority of people actually think that.
Right. People are tested constantly. They just don't call it an HIV screen test.
If we were to presume that "How many people have been tested FOR HIV," then I believe the results of the poll are accurate.
How many people are "tested for" other things but they find something they weren't even looking for?
Bazillions.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:49 PM
That's not why I never got tested...and I doubt a large majority of people actually think that.
I know. I think you are wrong about what people think though. I think that people being people, some will never consider themselves at risk. "I'll never happen to me" kind of mentality.
And yes, I think that some people, particularly those who "hate fags" do spread the idea that AIDS is primarily a gay disease and/or punishment for homosexual behavior. This is one of the reason I hate religious nuttiness. The spreading of false, dangerous ideas.
julianna
11-25-2003, 01:50 PM
I don't recall my husband having to be tested when he got our life insurance policy.
Medical testing of all kinds are required on a policy of 500k or more with the insurance company we used for our "key employee" policies.
Medical Testing
Physical examinations may be required when applying for large amounts of insurance. Your Financial Representative will schedule your appointment with a medical examiner and discuss with you the specific tests and information needed to process your application. It is important to prepare for this exam. Below are some tips that will assure the most accurate interpretation of your medical history.
Food and Medication
Ideally, no food or drink (except water) should be taken during the eight hours preceding your appointment. Medication may be taken as prescribed with water. If you are on medication that must be followed by milk or a meal, it should wait until after the exam if possible. Request an early-morning appointment to avoid this situation. If you are not going to take regularly scheduled medication, check with your personal health care provider first.
Get Plenty of Rest
When possible, your exam should be conducted when you are adequately rested and under the least pressure. Again, the morning is generally the best time for this. Get a good night's sleep before the exam, and avoid vigorous exercise on the morning of the exam as it may affect test results.
Arrive Early
Try to arrive for the examination a few minutes early. You should plan on at least 30 minutes for the completion of a full exam with blood and urine tests, plus another 30 minutes if you are undergoing a chest X-ray or an EKG.
Bring Your Health History
Be prepared with your past medical history before the scheduled examination appointment. This includes a list of all health care providers (including addresses and phone numbers if possible), the approximate appointment dates and the reason for the visit or hospitalization. If you have a history of prior hospitalization(s), the name and address of each hospital, and approximate dates are also important.
I know. I think you are wrong about what people think though. I think that people being people, some will never consider themselves at risk. "I'll never happen to me" kind of mentality.
People like me? ;D Honestly, I never gave the issue much thought.
And yes, I think that some people, particularly those who "hate fags" will spread the idea that AIDS is primarily a gay disease and/or punishment for homosexual behavior.
They may spread it, but I don't think they a) believe it b) represent a majority of any kind.
Tested for diabetes?
You've been tested for HIV.
Medical testing of all kinds are required on a policy of 500k or more with the insurance company we used for our "key employee" policies.
He may have been tested then, but I just don't remember.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:55 PM
People like me? ;D
No. You don't strike me as someone easily swayed by any propaganda, including the religious kind.
Your faith is important, no doubt, but in matters of science or health, I see you making your own mind up about these things.
Just as it should be. ;D
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:56 PM
Tested for diabetes?
You've been tested for HIV.
Yes, yes, yes, we get your point.
The poll is flawed.
Do you have any other comment to make on this thread? ;D
No. You don't strike me as someone easily swayed by any propaganda, including the religious kind.
Your faith is important, no doubt, but in matters of science or health, I see you making your own mind up about these things.
Just as it should be. ;D
Hee hee, no I meant the "it won't happen to me" attitude. But you know, they have the "high risk" catagories and I'm just not in any of them.
Yes, yes, yes, we get your point.
The poll is flawed.
Do you have any other comment to make on this thread? ;D
Whoops..sorry...didn't mean to beat the dead horse to death again.
I'll move along now. :-*
Whoops..sorry...didn't mean to beat the dead horse to death again.
I'll move along now. :-*
We understand, there just isn't much going on around here. Perhaps someone should start a poll about how long Pony and Tile will last. ;D That should stir up some stuff. :o
kathleen
11-25-2003, 01:59 PM
Hee hee, no I meant the "it won't happen to me" attitude. But you know, they have the "high risk" catagories and I'm just not in any of them.
But let's just say, God forbid, you are in a situation which requires you giving first aid to a stranger and you get covered with his/her blood.
Would you consider getting testing done afterwards?
kathleen
11-25-2003, 02:01 PM
Whoops..sorry...didn't mean to beat the dead horse to death again.
I'll move along now. :-*
It seemed to me that you were upset about the whole story, that's all.
It seemed to me that you were upset about the whole story, that's all.
Me? Upset? You've NEVER seen me upset. 8)
I handle EVERYTHING with quiet dignity and grace.
And some people think I'm not "romantic." ::)
Someone get Suth to tell ya about what I told her about AIDS.
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 02:15 PM
People like me? ;D Honestly, I never gave the issue much thought.They may spread it, but I don't think they a) believe it b) represent a majority of any kind.
They do spread it and they represent a great percentage of A) people who have it and B)new infection far beyond their numbers in the overall population. Part of the problem is it is ILLEGAL to ask someone if they have aids or test without their permissions. How 'bout that one! Deadly, contagious disease and there is a law against taking steps to protect the population. The homo's are complacent, notice only 1/3 of them have been tested and they aren't using any kind of protection. Probably almost thirty percent or better have it but we aren't allowed to test them and know for sure because it would hurt their feelings.
This poll was done for one reason and one reason only. To draw attention away from the homosexuals and somehow link AIDs to heterosexuals when it's almost impossible to get the disease unless you are a lowlife sex freak, a needle user or a homosexual. AIDS is a pervert disease period but the perverts can spread it to you if you're not careful. Of course they want you to believe that you are equally susceptible when in fact you are not. Read this then forget about AIDS , unless you need a blood transfusion.
The fatal price of anal intercourse…
Nearly 20 years later these remain the facts about AIDS. The moral of the story is that whether you are gay or straight, male or female, healthwise it is extremely foolharldy to let someone stick their penis, or any other object, up your anus.
In December 1985 when the AIDS scare was at its height, the science journal Discover ran a major special report entitled “AIDS: the latest scientific facts” authored by veteran science writer, John Langone with contributions from Sana Siwolop. The report, naturally, decried “homophobia” and lamented the social costs involved in the spread of HIV but its main focus was on presenting a historical and clinical account of the disease based on medical and scientific research. The article examined the causes and the sexual practices that facilitated the spread of HIV/AIDS. In furtherance of this aim the text was augmented by extensive colour medical illustrations that highlighted why certain parts of the human anatomy were not suited to particular sexual practices because of the inherent risk of trauma, which in turn eased the way for the spread of the AIDS virus into the body.
In many ways the Discover special report was something of an anomaly. For the first and probably last time a well known and reputable mainstream publication, openly criticized the practice of anal intercourse - even if on purely medical/scientific grounds with no moralizing overtones. Ever after this topic seems to have been banished from most discussions of AIDS. The sexual practices of homosexual and bisexual men thereafter seemed to play only a minor role in the AIDS crisis, the “real” cause seemingly to be laid at the feet of a “vast right-wing conspiracy” to kill-off gays.
Effectively one of the major sexual practices of homosexuals - anal intercourse - ceased to be of concern to anyone in the fields of social policy, social welfare or medicine. The curtain of political correctness descended and the guilt was - after the aforementioned vast right-wing conspiracy - laid at the feet of the education system for not teaching kids how to have “safe sex”.
The entire population of the western world was thus subjected to a media blitz in which everyone, regardless of sexual “orientation” or practice was threatened with extinction if they engaged in any and every form of “unprotected” sexual contact. The figure of the Grim Reaper was infamously the star attraction of a series of AIDS advertisements across Australia, and all other western countries had their own campaigns warning heterosexuals that they were next because “AIDS doesn’t discriminate… only people do.” Of course the truth was actually the complete reverse of the slogans.
And for a brief moment in the December 1985 issue of Discover (pp 36-53) the facts were laid bare without the least fear of violating the sacred tenets of “tolerance” and political correctness. The cover of the magazine boldly proclaimed:
Contrary to what you’ve heard, AIDS isn’t a threat to the vast majority of heterosexuals or a peril to humanity. It is - and is likely to remain - largely the fatal price one can pay for anal intercourse.
On page 41 it stated:
AIDS is a sexually transmissible disease almost only in the sense that it can be transmitted by anal intercourse.
On the same page is an illustrated spread showing “why AIDS is likely to remain largely a gay disease” in which the following points are made:
The AIDS virus is borne in blood and semen, and heterosexuals are virtually risk free.
The Vulnerable Rectum
The rectum, the lower portion of the large intestine that ends in the anus, is lined with fragile, easily invaded columnar cells. Moreover, the closer to the anus, the more blood vessels there are. Anal intercourse, second only to oral sex in frequency among homosexuals, can tear the lining, allowing AIDS virus infected semen ready entry to the blood stream. This sexual practice is the
commonest cause of AIDS.
The Fragile Urethra
The urethra, the thin tube leading from the bladder through the penis, is also mostly lined with columnar cells, with numerous underlying blood vessels. During anal intercourse with an AIDS-infected partner, the virus can pass from the rectum into the urethra, where it is able to penetrate the delicate walls.
The Rugged Vagina
Unlike the rectum, the vagina Is designed to withstand the trauma of intercourse as well as birth. Its lining is composed of layers of plate-like squamous cells that resist rupture and infectious agents, presumably including the AIDS virus. Its tissue has fewer blood vessels and is usually naturally lubricated during intercourse.
The main text elaborated upon these points in all their gory detail:
Anal sex is an essential element in the AIDS story… AIDS is a bloodborne disease that in most cases strikes, and will continue to strike, homosexual and bisexual males who have been the receptive partners in anal sex, a practice that tears the delicate lining of the rectum and allows the AIDS virus easy entry into the body's circulatory system.
... "Current modes of transmission will remain stable, and sexual transmission of the virus will account for the vast majority of cases in the United States for many years to come. Homosexual men and persons who abuse intravenously administered drugs will remain at extraordinary risk for AIDS. The disease will probably become the major cause of death in these populations." …
Although heterosexual men and women who aren't intravenous drug users or recipients of blood or blood products still represent only about one per cent of U.S. AIDS cases, some scientists have made flimsy cases for the imminent spread of the disease into the heterosexual population. They've cited vague and unverifiable statistics about men who've contracted AIDS from female prostitutes, and made reference to the high incidence of the disease among purported heterosexuals in central Africa, while, ignoring, the likelihood that these AIDS victims have secretly indulged in socially scorned homosexual practices, used unsterile needles, or undergone ritual scarification and tattooing.
…Sodomy, in this case anal sex, is an alternative to vaginal intercourse, of which the best-seller The Joy of Sex observes, - "This is something which nearly every couple tries once." [Really?] It's also common practice among homosexuals…
Even The Joy of Sex, which bills itself as the "Cordon Bleu Guide to Lovemaking", sees danger in anal sex: "Unlike almost any other common sex practice, this one does have drawbacks. Usually the first try is painful, and while this may go away with practice, it certainly won't if you have hemorrhoids; it can cause injury, as the area wasn't designed for that, and extreme gentleness on the man's part is needed-anal rape, even of a willing victim, is accordingly out."
Anatomical drawings of the rectum and the vagina show clearly why the rectum is far more susceptible to a blood-carried infection like AIDS. The inside of the vagina is made up of multiple layers of squamous cells that provide a fairly effective armor against infective agents. Also, heterosexual intercourse doesn't usually rupture the thick vaginal walls to allow a virus like AIDS easy access to the blood stream.
The inside of the rectum is another story. It's lined with columnar cells, which are more easily damaged and invaded by infective agents. Also, the rectum is more susceptible to tiny abrasions because it, like the rest of the digestive tract, is rich in blood capillaries that absorb nutrients from food. Thrusting an erect penis into the rectum, even after using a lubricant, can devastate the cellular layer, opening enough tears to allow easy passage of a virus in ejaculated semen to enter the blood stream.
That saliva is occasionally used as a lubricant in anal intercourse compounds the risk. "With our identification of HTLV-III in saliva, we propose that this might be a second route of transmission of the virus during anal intercourse," hematologist Jerome Groopman of New England Deaconess Hospital in Boston reported recently. Other practices involving the anus have also undoubtedly contributed to the AIDS outbreak among homosexuals. Fisting, for example, is an extremely dangerous… homosexual activity in which first heavily greased fingers, then a fist are inserted into the rectum; the trauma is severe, as blood vessels rupture and tiny cuts are made in the rectal lining by fingernails. Dildos, or artificial penises, can, like fisting, prepare the way for an AIDS infection if a rectum damaged by them is then subjected to anal intercourse.
Hemorrhoids, which plague many homosexuals and may be caused by the repeated -insertion of an object into the anus, are blood-swollen capillaries in the lower area of the rectum; when they rupture and bleed, as they often do, the AIDS virus has a pathway in. Even the seemingly precautionary practice of douching before anal sex is dangerous, because it kills off protective bacteria in the anus.
While the receptive partner in anal sex is generally considered to be at greater risk, some specialists warn that anal intercourse is a two-way street. Let's get rid of this misconception once and for all," says gastroenterologist Donald Kotler of St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital in New York. "The active partner in anal sex also stands a good chance of catching the disease." The penis, says Kotler, is fragile. Unlike the vagina, which has layer upon layer of lubricated cells built to withstand scraping, the urethra of the penis is coated with a delicate layer of mucosal cells that are easily invaded during anal sex. "It's pretty well established that the active partner in anal sex could transmit the AIDS virus if he were to abrade the rectum of his partner," Kotler says, "but you've also got to look at what his partner may be doing to him. If the passive partner were to bleed from the rectum onto the penis of the man doing the entering, then the active partner could have just as good a chance of contracting AIDS."
Beyond the fact that lesions in the rectum enhance the chances of AIDS infection, says Kotler, anal sex appears in a more subtle way to be an extraordinarily efficient means of spreading the disease. This is because of the types of immune cells found in the rectum and the variety of viruses that live in them. The colon, says Kotler, "is a filthy environment that needs constant surveillance from immune cells to keep foreign stuff out of the body.”…
AIDS may also be passed along during oral sex if infected semen is ejaculated into the mouth. It's not the virus making its way into the intestinal tract that poses the risk-presumably it would be inactivated in the stomach by bacterial enzymes-but its getting into lesions in the mouth, such as sores or bleeding gums. A person fighting a gum infection or flu is more at risk…
Summing up Discover notes:
“If AIDS is going to spread heterosexually, it will do so primarily through the enormous pool of heroin addicts, male and female, and not through conventional sexual contacts between ‘straight’ men and women.”
But let's just say, God forbid, you are in a situation which requires you giving first aid to a stranger and you get covered with his/her blood.
Would you consider getting testing done afterwards?
Of course
kathleen
11-25-2003, 02:18 PM
AIDS is a pervert disease period.....
Yeah, babies born with the disease are real perverts. ::)
AIDS is a disease primarily spread by IV drug use and sexual irresponsibility/promiscuity, no matter who the individual happens to be screwing.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 02:22 PM
Of course
You still won't be in the "high" risk catagory but your risk would be higher than before you administered the first aid.
My point is that you understand the risk factors and would take proper precautions. You won't be fooled by misleading or false information.
Some people will.
Persephone
11-25-2003, 02:25 PM
And some people think I'm not "romantic." ::)
Someone get Suth to tell ya about what I told her about AIDS.
LOL. That was a winner. He told me he'd rather die of AIDS he caught from me than from anybody else in the world.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 02:26 PM
AIDS is a disease primarily spread by IV drug use and sexual irresponsibility/promiscuity, no matter who the individual happens to be screwing.
You can only control your own sexuality. You can never be completely sure of your partner.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 02:27 PM
LOL. That was a winner. He told me he'd rather die of AIDS he caught from me than from anybody else in the world.
Ahhh, be still my beating heart. ;D
LOL. That was a winner. He told me he'd rather die of AIDS he caught from me than from anybody else in the world.
"I can't think of anyone I'd rather die from catching AIDS from than you."
~badnews~
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 02:28 PM
AIDS is a disease primarily spread by IV drug use and sexual irresponsibility/promiscuity, no matter who the individual happens to be screwing.
IV users in the hetro-loser community, is true.. How many do you think there are of those who have the disease compared to homosexualswho have it? Most of the people that get it from screwing are the people who have anal intercourse. Even most of the porno actors know enough not to do that so who else is left? Hummm???
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 02:31 PM
Yeah, babies born with the disease are real perverts. ::)
They didn't catch it did they? You haven't a brain in you head do you?
kathleen
11-25-2003, 02:34 PM
They didn't catch it did they? You haven't a brain in you head do you?
I do. Unlike yours, mine actually works.
What does 'catch' have to do with it? You said AIDS is a disease of perverts. Period. You said nothing about "catching" it.
Moron. ::)
blurb
11-25-2003, 02:43 PM
This poll was done for one reason and one reason only. To draw attention away from the homosexuals and somehow link AIDs to heterosexuals.....
That's how I read it too...see, heterosexuals get aids too, therefore heterosexual and homosexual behavior is equivalent
Not surprising though...
"Witeck-Combs is a strategic public relations and marketing firm with an emphasis on the GLBT market"
The article also implied that homosexuals are actually more socially responsible or 'better' than hetero's, because they get tested for AIDS in greater numbers
"Furthermore, eight out of 10 heterosexual adults say they do not get tested because they did not consider themselves at risk for HIV, perhaps suggesting that more HIV/AIDS prevention education is needed for heterosexual Americans, the report states."
Oh yeah...just what we need...more homo propaganda
Most people seemed to miss this right at the end of the article.... the real reason that heteros are not getting themselves tested for AIDS as much as homos?
"However, HIV is contingent on risk behavior..."
EXACTLY!
Here...let me put it simply...
Don't put your pee pee in the poo poo.
"Live long and prosper."
~Spock~
You can only control your own sexuality. You can never be completely sure of your partner.
If you want to lessen your risk, you have less partners through out your life.
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 02:49 PM
I do. Unlike yours, mine actually works.
What does 'catch' have to do with it? You said AIDS is a disease of perverts. Period. You said nothing about "catching" it.
Moron. ::)
Sorry but you're the one that equated babies with perverts as if one has anything to do with the other. All you've done is try and minimize the degree of responsibility the homo's have in spreading the disease. Typical Leftist Loser and brain dead female apologist for everything that is evil. You never miss a chance to prove it either.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 02:54 PM
Sorry but you're the one that equated babies with perverts as if one has anything to do with the other. All you've done is try and minimize the degree of responsibility the homo's have in spreading the disease. Typical Leftist Loser and brain dead female apologist for everything that is evil. You never miss a chance to prove it either.
Do you live in a home somewhere? Do the administrators pay staff to feed you and type these messages for you? Sometimes I wonder how you survive without help since it appears you are a perfect candidate for the Darwin awards. ::)
You are the one that made the blanket statement that only perverts get AIDS. I pointed out your error and now you think I'm calling babies perverts? Unbelieveable.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 03:03 PM
If you want to lessen your risk, you have less partners through out your life.
Yes. And the partners you do choose you pick very carefully.
A person can choose to have sexual relations with one person only throughout their life but if that person chosen is a philanderer , the risk is almost just as great as if they were sleeping with a bunch of lovers themselves.
Yes. And the partners you do choose you pick very carefully.
A person can choose to have sexual relations with one person only throughout their life but if that person chosen is a philanderer , the risk is almost just as great as if they were sleeping with a bunch of lovers themselves.
That's why it's important to choose carefully.
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 03:11 PM
Do you live in a home somewhere? Do the administrators pay staff to feed you and type these messages for you? Sometimes I wonder how you survive without help since it appears you are a perfect candidate for the Darwin awards. ::)
You are the one that made the blanket statement that only perverts get AIDS. I pointed out your error and now you think I'm calling babies perverts? Unbelieveable.
What's unbelievable is that I say perverts and you think of babies. That tells me you are more the wicked witch than Liz. You're a walking, almost talking bundle of Liberal induced mania. You are your own Darwin award, barren, bitter and bovine. What ever happened to daddy's little girl anyway?
kathleen
11-25-2003, 03:15 PM
What's unbelievable is that I say perverts and you think of babies.
I didn't make that connection, you did, with your blanket statement.
You were wrong. Admit it. That's what a real MAN does.
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 03:19 PM
I didn't make that connection, you did, with your blanket statement.
You were wrong. Admit it. That's what a real MAN does.
This is where I pull out the old, "it takes one to know one"?
kathleen
11-25-2003, 03:21 PM
This is where I pull out the old, "it takes one to know one"?
Old and tired it is. Fundy christians have never appeared to be part of the genius crowd. They can't even think of original comebacks. ::)
guido
11-25-2003, 03:47 PM
I have a better chance of getting breast cancer than I have of getting aids.........I will never get tested for aids......no reason to.
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 03:50 PM
Old and tired it is. Fundy christians have never appeared to be part of the genius crowd. They can't even think of original comebacks. ::)
The fact Butch, that it went over your head doesn't mean it wasn't good. 8)
kathleen
11-25-2003, 03:55 PM
I have a better chance of getting breast cancer than I have of getting aids.........
Only if you have an abortion (according to the fanatical pro-life members). ;D
Truthfully, men do get breast cancer. It's rare but it does happen.
Better start doing your monthly breast exam. ;)
kathleen
11-25-2003, 03:56 PM
The fact Butch, that it went over your head doesn't mean it wasn't good.
It wasn't.
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 04:17 PM
It wasn't.
Was too.
kathleen
11-25-2003, 04:34 PM
Was too.
You going to pull my hair now? ::)
Tiger
11-25-2003, 04:36 PM
I've never been tested - but see no reason to be either.
NorNec
11-25-2003, 04:46 PM
Come to think of it, I bet I was tested again a few months ago, when they did the initial blood screen for pregnancy. But I have never gone to a clinic to be tested.
This is funny, I picture Giancarlo and GayAvenger walking into the clinic and everyone yells, ab"Norm" Kinda like Cheers. I bet Giacarlo is a liitle like Cliff Claven. ;D
lgllady
11-25-2003, 04:49 PM
But let's just say, God forbid, you are in a situation which requires you giving first aid to a stranger and you get covered with his/her blood.
Would you consider getting testing done afterwards?
It largely depends on giving first aid to a stranger. Unless you are an EMT you are NOT ever required to give first aid to a stranger.
Don't give first aid to a stranger and strike this concern off your list.
Tiger
11-25-2003, 04:51 PM
It largely depends on giving first aid to a stranger. Unless you are an EMT you are NOT ever required to give first aid to a stranger.
Don't give first aid to a stranger and strike this concern off your list.
I thought there was some sort of a 'failure to render aid" that you could be charged with.
It largely depends on giving first aid to a stranger. Unless you are an EMT you are NOT ever required to give first aid to a stranger.
Such is the world in which we live.
Not only that, you give first aid and you FUBAR, the best thing that could happen is if the sumbitch dies because if he lives, he'll sue your ass for everything you've got.
I'll take the chances of it and offer it if I can...unless it's a negroid, a spic, a Hebe or a Dago, of course.
lgllady
11-25-2003, 04:52 PM
When gays were discovering that they were contracting AIDS at a diastrous rate, there was some propaganda kicked about that AIDS would explode into the general population of heterosexuals.
Suddenly everyone was at risk. Actually few were at risk but that didn't stop the propaganda machine. It was felt that unless everyone really was at risk, there wouldn't be sufficient funding into AIDS research.
Sane people took a serious look at their lives and realized no they weren't at risk at all. Unless they had a blood transfusion, they had no risk.
I see that they are still beating this dead horse to death.
I thought there was some sort of a 'failure to render aid" that you could be charged with.
You're "required" to contact 911 if you can.
You're not supposed to watch the idiot die and do nothing.
Tiger
11-25-2003, 04:56 PM
You're "required" to contact 911 if you can.
You're not supposed to watch the idiot die and do nothing.
Oh.
Well, I suppose I could do that.
Isn't there like a "good samaritan's" defense if you fuck them up?
I've always wanted to perform a tracheatomy.
guido
11-25-2003, 05:05 PM
Only if you have an abortion (according to the fanatical pro-life members). ;D
Truthfully, men do get breast cancer. It's rare but it does happen.
Better start doing your monthly breast exam. ;)
I'm on a serious diet. I'm hoping in a few more weeks I'll lose my breasts entirely. ;D
Tiger
11-25-2003, 05:11 PM
I'm on a serious diet. I'm hoping in a few more weeks I'll lose my breasts entirely. ;D
Could you save them for me please?
guido
11-25-2003, 05:32 PM
Could you save them for me please?
;D will do
LOL. That was a winner. He told me he'd rather die of AIDS he caught from me than from anybody else in the world.
That's got to be one of the most morbid things I've ever read...
No, wait... not just morbid... MACABRE.
;)
Only if you have an abortion (according to the fanatical pro-life members). ;D
Truthfully, men do get breast cancer. It's rare but it does happen.
Better start doing your monthly breast exam. ;)
There's a "feeling for lumps" joke in there... somewhere. ;)
Okay, folks… please note that this survey was released as part of AIDS AWARENESS Day.
(Can you say AWARENESS, boys and girls? I know you can.)
Yes, anyone that goes in for any kind of “blood work” will almost certainly be screened for HIV. This means pregnancy, donation, surgery… anything of that ilk. And even if you didn’t hear HIV-specific results from the meds or techs… then you are probably okay.
But YOU are not the folks that need to be REACHED.
Young, healthy adults that have NOT had “routine blood work” done recently… You folks that have bodies like Adonis or Aphrodite (or Calvin Klein models), who run marathons and do NOT go to the doctor unless you pierce an eardrum… YOU folks should be tested.
Of course… anyone with a “lifestyle” even slightly more “edgy” than a Sistine monk… should be tested.
EVERYONE should not only be 100% CONFIDENT of their HIV status… EVERYONE should ALSO have the test results to PROVE it.
It’s innocuous… it’s CHEAP… (often even FREE)… and there is absolutely NO REASON to not know it.
Proclaiming that “I’ve never been tested” is NOT some kind of “badge of purity.” In this day and age… it’s just ignorant.
Just DO IT and get it over with. It can’t hurt.
Oh good. ;D I knew they tested the blood of course, but I didn't know if they would contact the donor. It has never been a chief concern of mine.
Being a somewhat philantropic cuss, I would donate blood...
... but they don't want mine.
One could have been a professional prostitute for twenty years... so long as one has been "out of the business" for six months... then one's blood is "okay."
But have just ONE same-gender encounter... in the last QUARTER-CENTURY!... and your blood is no good.
Screw 'em... I'll KEEP my damn blood.
Interesting side-note: When I FIRST wanted to test for HIV... back in the mid-eighties... my doctor said he couldn't do that... He recommended that I donate to the Red Cross... but mark my application "for testing only." Go figure.
I-RIGHT-I
11-25-2003, 06:56 PM
Okay, folks… please note that this survey was released as part of AIDS AWARENESS Day.
(Can you say AWARENESS, boys and girls? I know you can.)
Yes, anyone that goes in for any kind of “blood work” will almost certainly be screened for HIV. This means pregnancy, donation, surgery… anything of that ilk. And even if you didn’t hear HIV-specific results from the meds or techs… then you are probably okay.
But YOU are not the folks that need to be REACHED.
Young, healthy adults that have NOT had “routine blood work” done recently… You folks that have bodies like Adonis or Aphrodite (or Calvin Klein models), who run marathons and do NOT go to the doctor unless you pierce an eardrum… YOU folks should be tested.
Of course… anyone with a “lifestyle” even slightly more “edgy” than a Sistine monk… should be tested.
EVERYONE should not only be 100% CONFIDENT of their HIV status… EVERYONE should ALSO have the test results to PROVE it.
It’s innocuous… it’s CHEAP… (often even FREE)… and there is absolutely NO REASON to not know it.
Proclaiming that “I’ve never been tested” is NOT some kind of “badge of purity.” In this day and age… it’s just ignorant.
Just DO IT and get it over with. It can’t hurt.
I've had blood work done recently and HIV was not included. I believe you have to ask for it. When I had that blood work done the clutz nurse stuck herself with the needle she used on me. They had to ask my permission to take another sample and have it tested for HIV so the clutz could sleep easy because all those people in that doctor's office by law are prevented from knowing who has contracted the disease. One of the reasons that HIV is spreading into the hetro community is because of this privacy law. You don't know who you're dealing with you are prevented from asking and there's no data base to work from anyway.
Thank you homo's for making our life just a little more dangerous.
You are also tested for it when you purchase life insurance. They tested me when we purchased the new policy for my business partner and myself in case either one of us kicks off.
So you're a "million-dollar" woman? ;)
The principals of my firm are not allowed to fly on the same airplane.
Tiger
11-25-2003, 07:00 PM
Okay, folks… please note that this survey was released as part of AIDS AWARENESS Day.
(Can you say AWARENESS, boys and girls? I know you can.)
Yes, anyone that goes in for any kind of “blood work” will almost certainly be screened for HIV. This means pregnancy, donation, surgery… anything of that ilk. And even if you didn’t hear HIV-specific results from the meds or techs… then you are probably okay.
But YOU are not the folks that need to be REACHED.
Young, healthy adults that have NOT had “routine blood work” done recently… You folks that have bodies like Adonis or Aphrodite (or Calvin Klein models), who run marathons and do NOT go to the doctor unless you pierce an eardrum… YOU folks should be tested.
Of course… anyone with a “lifestyle” even slightly more “edgy” than a Sistine monk… should be tested.
EVERYONE should not only be 100% CONFIDENT of their HIV status… EVERYONE should ALSO have the test results to PROVE it.
It’s innocuous… it’s CHEAP… (often even FREE)… and there is absolutely NO REASON to not know it.
Proclaiming that “I’ve never been tested” is NOT some kind of “badge of purity.” In this day and age… it’s just ignorant.
Just DO IT and get it over with. It can’t hurt.
Okay MADG - I am obviously among the 'stupid' for never having been tested - but tell me more about it.
For instance - it is cheap and sometimes free? Where? My doctor charges for breathing on me. And I would be embarrassed to go in - in my little town and say I wanted an AIDS test. Everyone in the donut shop would know by noon.
They would start rumors that I was having an affair - or that my husband was.
If what they say is true; if aids cannot be caught through day to day contact - how could I have it?
And - and this is the biggie of all - why would I want to know? As far as I know - there is no cure so far. I could go a long time without someone telling me I am terminal.
If I have it - I don't wanna know.
Thank you homo's for making our life just a little more dangerous.
And thank YOU for syphilis, gonorrhea, herpes (in its myriad forms), influenza (in its myriad forms), POX (in its myriad forms), plague (in its myriad forms), tuberculosis, Ebola, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, dwarfism, psychosis, periodontal disease, male pattern baldness, uncontrollable flatulence, hypertension, poor self-esteem, locusts, WAR, RAPE, bigotry, intolerance, domestic violence, slavery, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and EVERY OTHER GOD DAMN PROBLEM THAT HAS EVER PLAGUED MANKIND THROUGHOUT ALL OF RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY!!!
Fuck you very much you self-righteous prick.
guido
11-25-2003, 07:20 PM
I'm actually going in next month for a full physical, including bloodwork. My right leg has been going numb on occassion........lasts only a few minutes, but it used to only happen when I sat for prolonged periods. It's starting to happen when I'm standing now.
Okay MADG - I am obviously among the 'stupid' for never having been tested - but tell me more about it.
For instance - it is cheap and sometimes free? Where? My doctor charges for breathing on me. And I would be embarrassed to go in - in my little town and say I wanted an AIDS test. Everyone in the donut shop would know by noon.
They would start rumors that I was having an affair - or that my husband was.
If what they say is true; if aids cannot be caught through day to day contact - how could I have it?
And - and this is the biggie of all - why would I want to know? As far as I know - there is no cure so far. I could go a long time without someone telling me I am terminal.
If I have it - I don't wanna know.
CLINICS can be free and anonymous... "I want to be ignorant of my own health" is never a good outlook.
I personally wish to stress AVOIDANCE over survivability... but HIV is not the death sentence that it once was. That's part of the problem... Western nations have resources that the rest of the World does not.
Coming soon is a convenient kind-of "home kit" for HIV testing... and even a twenty-minute "club kit."
There's just no reason to not know for sure. Even having a transfusion... almost completely safe... but still a one-in-a-million chance of infection.
Wouldn't you rather know for certain? You owe it to yourself... and to those that care for you.
I'm actually going in next month for a full physical, including bloodwork. My right leg has been going numb on occassion........lasts only a few minutes, but it used to only happen when I sat for prolonged periods. It's starting to happen when I'm standing now.
Possible warning sign of heart or circulation problems... don't hesitate... better to be certain.
guido
11-25-2003, 07:24 PM
Possible warning sign of heart or circulation problems... don't hesitate... better to be certain.
Exactly. If it wasn't for my wife, I'd still be wasting time........she made the appointment without asking me. She's a good woman
Exactly. If it wasn't for my wife, I'd still be wasting time........she made the appointment without asking me. She's a good woman
It's good to have someone to care for you... you irresponsible adolescent, you.
;)
guido
11-25-2003, 07:30 PM
It's good to have someone to care for you... you irresponsible adolescent, you.
;)
I just never wanted to give up the fantasy that I'm indestructable. :)
And thank YOU for syphilis, gonorrhea, herpes (in its myriad forms), influenza (in its myriad forms), POX (in its myriad forms), plague (in its myriad forms), tuberculosis, Ebola, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, dwarfism, psychosis, periodontal disease, male pattern baldness, uncontrollable flatulence, hypertension, poor self-esteem, locusts, WAR, RAPE, bigotry, intolerance, domestic violence, slavery, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and EVERY OTHER GOD DAMN PROBLEM THAT HAS EVER PLAGUED MANKIND THROUGHOUT ALL OF RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY!!!
Fuck you very much you self-righteous prick.
Very true and 20% were by preachers of the gospel. ;)
I just never wanted to give up the fantasy that I'm indestructable. :)
Hot rod... telephone pole... reality... OUCH!
;)
I just never wanted to give up the fantasy that I'm indestructable. :)
Just be thankful it's not your middle leg that's going numb. ;D
Tiger
11-25-2003, 07:37 PM
CLINICS can be free and anonymous... "I want to be ignorant of my own health" is never a good outlook.
I personally wish to stress AVOIDANCE over survivability... but HIV is not the death sentence that it once was. That's part of the problem... Western nations have resources that the rest of the World does not.
Coming soon is a convenient kind-of "home kit" for HIV testing... and even a twenty-minute "club kit."
There's just no reason to not know for sure. Even having a transfusion... almost completely safe... but still a one-in-a-million chance of infection.
Wouldn't you rather know for certain? You owe it to yourself... and to those that care for you.
I really can't say that I would want to know. But I am healthy and don't mess around and neither does my husband. I have been bitten by a few mosquitos - but they say that doesn't count.
You say it is not a death sentence - but I have heard that it is.
Is there a cure?
And who pays for the treatment? I think most insurances have riders that won't pay - don't they? So who does pay? Isn't the treatment expensive?
How can getting tested help me avoid getting it? What if they poke me with an infected needle?
Do most gay men have it now?
Do many hetero's have it?
What are the symptoms of it?
I know virtually nothing about it.
But one time I heard that HIV did not always turn into AIDS. Is that true?
guido
11-25-2003, 07:40 PM
Just be thankful it's not your middle leg that's going numb. ;D
;D I'd give up the left AND right leg to keep that from happening.
Okay, folks… please note that this survey was released as part of AIDS AWARENESS Day.
(Can you say AWARENESS, boys and girls? I know you can.)
Yes, anyone that goes in for any kind of “blood work” will almost certainly be screened for HIV. This means pregnancy, donation, surgery… anything of that ilk. And even if you didn’t hear HIV-specific results from the meds or techs… then you are probably okay.
But YOU are not the folks that need to be REACHED.
Young, healthy adults that have NOT had “routine blood work” done recently… You folks that have bodies like Adonis or Aphrodite (or Calvin Klein models), who run marathons and do NOT go to the doctor unless you pierce an eardrum… YOU folks should be tested.
Of course… anyone with a “lifestyle” even slightly more “edgy” than a Sistine monk… should be tested.
EVERYONE should not only be 100% CONFIDENT of their HIV status… EVERYONE should ALSO have the test results to PROVE it.
It’s innocuous… it’s CHEAP… (often even FREE)… and there is absolutely NO REASON to not know it.
Proclaiming that “I’ve never been tested” is NOT some kind of “badge of purity.” In this day and age… it’s just ignorant.
Just DO IT and get it over with. It can’t hurt.
Blah, blah, blah, I'm in a monogamouse marraige with my ONE sexual partner of my entire life, I have never used IV drugs and I have never had a blood transfusion. If I have HIV then someone injected it into me when I was sleeping. I have better things to do with my time then to go get proof just because it's AIDS AWARENESS week. ;)
EVERYONE should ALSO have the test results to PROVE it.
By the by, who exactly should I have to prove it to? You? :)
My husband knows I don't have it and my doctor knows I don't have it, who else matters?
blurb
11-25-2003, 09:35 PM
Blah, blah, blah, I'm in a monogamouse marraige with my ONE sexual partner of my entire life, I have never used IV drugs and I have never had a blood transfusion. If I have HIV then someone injected it into me when I was sleeping. I have better things to do with my time then to go get proof just because it's AIDS AWARENESS week. ;)
I'm beginning to think he must own stock in one of the companies that sell AIDS test kits.
Ok MADG, spill the beans....which one is it?
Maybe I'll buy 20,000 shares of this one for $100.00 :P
MSITF (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=MSITF.PK)
I really can't say that I would want to know[…]
I’ve got to stop you right there… there is no valid reason to NOT know. Folks have been infected by their DENTISTS… exceedingly RARE, albeit… but it’s happened.
Why not know for sure?
[…] But I am healthy and don't mess around and neither does my husband. I have been bitten by a few mosquitos - but they say that doesn't count.
You cannot get HIV from mosquitoes… (all sorts of other things… West Nile virus, enciphilitous… but not HIV)
You say it is not a death sentence - but I have heard that it is.
Is there a cure?
Unlike the 80s, HIV is not necessarily a death sentence. People with AIDS (PWA) that completely restructure their lifestyles, AND adhere to (some say overbearing, prohibitively expensive, and discomfortingly intrusive) pharmaceutical regimens, live on to… well… we really don’t know HOW many years. But we DO know that it’s years of remarkable expense and self-discipline… or not many years at all.
No, there is not yet a cure for HIV… nor is there a reliable inoculation… yet.
Knowledge and prevention are still the best weapons.
And who pays for the treatment? I think most insurances have riders that won't pay - don't they? So who does pay? Isn't the treatment expensive?
Yes, the treatments are expensive… just like any life-sustaining treatments.
Who pays? Does that really matter? Who pays for polio? Who pays for influenza? Who pays for syphilis? Who pays for cancer? Who pays for autism? Who pays for blindness… or deafness… or paraplegia? Who pays for “handicap access ramps” in all new buildings?
Ultimately… we ALL pay, of course.
I must admit that I have a somewhat-socialistic soft spot when it comes to health care. Everybody should have coverage… especially in our profit-driven “human life for dollars” capitalist system. Chalk it up to human compassion… I’ve had friends and family die of cancer, accidents, complications from Alzheimer’s… and from just plain ignorance.
We’re all in this together.
How can getting tested help me avoid getting it?
It won’t… but it might prevent you from spreading it… Typhoid Mary. ;)
What if they poke me with an infected needle?
Then there’s a special place in Heaven for you… hey, you won the lottery!!! :)
Do most gay men have it now?
Nope. Infection rates are in the single-digits.
Do many hetero's have it?
Yes… Globally, it is an almost-exclusively “heterosexual disease.” Only in “civilized” nations do we pretend that it is a “gay disease.”
What are the symptoms of it?
HIV infection… chronically swollen glands… night sweats… unexplained weight loss… and other biologically messy symptoms….
AIDS (presumably caused by HIV infection) is a “syndrome”… IE: a “collection of symptoms.” One is said to have AIDS when one has three or more conditions that the body would normally fight off… for example: pneumonia, KS, and (let’s say) hives. No one of these should be fatal, but the inability to fight off all three (or more) due to a depressed immune system reaction… leads to death.
That’s AIDS.
I know virtually nothing about it.
But one time I heard that HIV did not always turn into AIDS. Is that true?
With modern pharmaceutical regimens (“drug cocktails”)… HIV no longer necessarily leads to AIDS…at least not in Western cultures… providing that it is caught and treated in time. Hence the importance of KNOWING for sure.
Look… I’m not trying to solve sub-Saharan decimation here… I’m just saying that there is NO DOWNSIDE in knowing for certain. We have to move past the “embarrassment” of just TALKING to our personal health care providers. Asking questions doesn’t cost money… ignorance is a LOT more expensive.
Just make sure… you’ll be happy you did.
Good night.
kathleen
11-26-2003, 09:39 AM
I have better things to do with my time then to go get proof just because it's AIDS AWARENESS week. ;)
But if your status changes (or even if you just suspect that your status has changed), I think you would be intelligent enough to go get it checked anyway.
I believe that is one of the major points of this thread, educating the general public of the risk factors and testing procedures. Because, believe it or not, people still DON'T KNOW. And this ignorance is, in large part, responsible for the spread of this disease. Is it strickly a gay disease? NO. Is it strickly a disease of perverts? NO.
Your reasons for not getting tested are valid, for the most part. You know where you've been, but do you know for certain where your husband was? In my experience, you can never be completely certain. I was 100% sure that my ex was faithful, until I found out how wrong I was. I'm 99.99% sure that Coop has been faithful, even during the 3 months we lived in different parts of the country. But there is no way I can know with 100% accuracy.
And as MADG has mentioned, what's the harm in getting the test?
Your reasons for not getting tested are valid, for the most part. You know where you've been, but do you know for certain where your husband was?
Well, I suppose it's accurate that no one can be 100% sure where someone else has been, but if everyone took that to the literal extreme, then no one, including monogomous married couples should ever have sex without a condom. If I wasn't "sure" about where my husband has been, I wouldn;t have married him.
And as MADG has mentioned, what's the harm in getting the test?
Well, there is an alarming nature to his posts on the matter frankly. I've got other things to do. I am no opposed to ANYone getting tested for what ever reason they choose, but I find the suggestion that I HAVE to get tested and have PROOF of it some what silly.
kathleen
11-26-2003, 10:15 AM
If I wasn't "sure" about where my husband has been, I wouldn;t have married him.
Of course. I wouldn't be with mine if I had the indication he wouldn't/couldn't be faithful.
My point is that there are many people just like us who thought the same thing and were not as lucky as we were. Or had poor judgement picking their spouses. Whatever the case, thinking we are completely safe doesn't necessarily mean that we are.
I find the suggestion that I HAVE to get tested and have PROOF of it some what silly.
Right. If you have piece of mind, good for you. I had the test done because I was starting a new relationship. It isn't in my nature to be so irresponsible as to assume I'm clean and take the chance I could spread something to an innocent party. And I certainly wasn't going to take the risk of catching something from him since I knew he wasn't a virgin when we started dating.
That's just the way I am. Some people say a little too practical but what do they know? ;D
lgllady
11-26-2003, 02:33 PM
Who are you supposed to PROVE it to? Anyone, everyone?? Just who is demanding proof and is the reason valid.
Who are you supposed to PROVE it to? Anyone, everyone?? Just who is demanding proof and is the reason valid.
Just prove it to yourself... everyone else is suspect.
lgllady
12-01-2003, 11:59 AM
Just prove it to yourself... everyone else is suspect.
I have absolutely nothing to prove to myself. I know what I've been doing.
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