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View Full Version : Bush: Faith Based Initiatives Whether You Like It Or Not


Slipped Mickey
12-12-2002, 06:53 AM
Bush is going to shove religion down your throat whether you like it or not. Frankly it's another Democrat move, putting more and bigger government in your life and doing so against the wishes of most Americans. This program is such bullshit. Churches are in a very real sense saying "we won't do it now but if you pay us to we'll become more altruistic." Give me a damn break.



Bush to bypass Congress on 'faith-based' charities
BY RON HUTCHESON
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Posted on Wed, Dec. 11, 2002

WASHINGTON - President Bush today will issue a sweeping executive order directing federal agencies to let religious charities compete for social-service grants and contracts, bypassing Congress on a sensitive church-state issue.

With his "faith-based" initiative stalled in the Senate, Bush will push his agenda forward with the stroke of a pen at a conference of religious charities in Philadelphia. Administration officials said the order would help clear the way for government assistance to religious organizations that serve the poor.

The order is intended to make sure that faith-based groups can retain their religious identities, including the right to hire workers based on religion, while accepting federal tax dollars. But it will prohibit the use of federal tax money for worship services, religious instruction or other "inherently religious" activity.

Bush's plan to let religious groups tap into the federal treasury for charitable work was a key element of his "compassionate conservative" agenda in his 2000 presidential campaign. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives approved Bush's proposal six months after he took office, but it bogged down in the Democratic-controlled Senate because of concerns about the separation of church and state.

Rob Boston, a spokesman for the group Americans United for Separation of Church and State, called the president's action "an end run around the democratic process" that blurs the line between government and religion.

"What Bush wants to do is make it possible for religious groups to get federal funds and continue to discriminate on the basis of religion in hiring their staffs. That's essentially taxpayer support for religious discrimination," Boston said. "Discrimination on any grounds is anathema to the American people."

Although the executive order will accomplish much of what Bush wants to do, it won't end the debate over faith-based legislation. Administration officials said Bush would continue to press Congress to remove the legal barriers that make it hard for religious groups to get federal money.

"The president basically is making clear that he's going to do everything within his authority to seek to put an end to discrimination against faith-based groups," a senior administration official said Wednesday, speaking on condition of anonymity. "He's taking some pretty sweeping action to do what he campaigned to do. ... They're bold steps."

The plan has critics at both ends of the political spectrum. Some liberals fear that faith-based groups would use government money to promote religious views. Some conservatives worry that accepting federal money would dilute the spirituality and effectiveness of religious charities.

"This initiative recognizes the power of faith in helping heal some of our nation's wounds," Bush said at a White House event earlier this year. "I have faith that faith will work in solving the problems."

The president's executive order is welcome news for advocates of closer cooperation between the government and religious charities.

"I'm as happy as I can be," said the Rev. Herb Lusk, the pastor at Greater Exodus Baptist Church in Philadelphia. "Churches have their hands on the pulse-beat of what's going on. There's a networking system that's beneath the radar of some big bureaucracies."

Bush also will direct the Federal Emergency Management Agency to revise its policies to let religious nonprofit organizations qualify for disaster relief. The White House became aware of the issue when the Seattle Hebrew Academy, a private religious school, was denied disaster aid after an earthquake.

Another executive order will create faith-based offices at the Agriculture Department and the Agency for International Development, to help religious charities tap into programs that those agencies run. Bush already has established similar offices at five other federal agencies.

His Philadelphia visit comes 10 days after John Dilulio, the former head of the White House office on faith-based programs, made headlines with some stinging criticism of his former boss.

In an interview with Esquire magazine, Dilulio said the Bush White House was consumed by politics and treated policy as an afterthought. Dilulio, now a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, later retracted his comments.

wendy
12-12-2002, 10:12 AM
I really have to laugh when I read about discrimination of faith based groups that discriminate.

Ok.

So, is Bush going to decide what IS and is NOT a legitimate faith based organization?

12-12-2002, 10:16 AM
I really have to laugh when I read about discrimination of faith based groups that discriminate.

Ok.

So, is Bush going to decide what IS and is NOT a legitimate faith based organization?


Shit, I hope not.

The Religious Reich that is pulling his strings is just about as backwards and militant as we have had in the country since McCarthy.

This is crap, pure and simple.

lgllady
12-12-2002, 02:19 PM
Someone tell me how these programs are shoving religion down the throats of anyone?

Slipped Mickey
12-12-2002, 03:32 PM
Someone tell me how these programs are shoving religion down the throats of anyone?


It's YOUR tax dollars supporting non-taxed entities who have lobbied hard in the past - and successfully too - to be exempt from laws requiring them to respect the very rights of the people they now want so much to help AS LONG AS THE MONEY IS THERE. In short compassion cannot be brokered and sold. That should also tell you where the Bushman is coming from.

Are there qualifications for these religious entities to actually practice their professed sudden compassion? I don't know. If you are a private or non-profit you have to know what it is you are doing. Do you honestly think deep in your heart that the pentacostal church of your choice is going to counsel and aid HIV people with compassion and without a heavy measure of judgement and preaching? Sheeeit!

buzaw
12-12-2002, 07:59 PM
I'm agin it.

1. Tax dollars always become a carron - on - stick for govt control. You comply with certain standards or you're out. So with you and yours out, you pay for the compying sheeples who'r still in on the take.

2. It'l open up another pie for the lawyers to feast on, sorting out all the legalities.

3. It'l trend towards favoring whatever groups are politically correct and give leverage to the Slick Willies types who like stuff like this for political advantage.

4. It'l open up a load of avenues for fraud.

5. It expands government and bleeds the taxpayers, forcing them to give to benevolent private groups with whom they do not agree in principle or ideology.

6. No doubt the terrorists will find ways of diverting funds their way. So with other unsavory groups.

On and on we could go.

(Mickles, this is scary. Twice in a row we agree on something. What's goin on here??) :o

Lance
12-12-2002, 08:06 PM
??? Buzz: FWIW, I agree too. This is bad any way you slice it. Oh, its nice for those "in" groups right now. But sooner or later, the "in" group will be one you don't like, then what?

And I think that is the point as well. If you're going to slurp from the federal trough, you need to comply with federal rules. Otherwise, you're going to get a chruch/state issue going which will be lost in court, ultimately.

I personally think the government has no business in the charity business. This article on NoPC says it all.

http://nopc.antares-dev.com/opinions/sockdlgr.htm

Slipped Mickey
12-12-2002, 11:04 PM
Naa Buzz, I've always believed most of us agree on more than we disagree. We are all just to stubborn to admit. Me too.

Thing is with the latest Bush boondoggle, no one wants it. Churches don't want it and neither do the voters. It's a silly-assed attempt to make good on his "compassionate conservative" campaign promises. No one, but no one thinks this is a good idea. It is throwing money down a rat hole and Bush is insulting all of us by doing it. Compassion can't be bought. There's a naming for selling compassion - prostitution.

guido
12-13-2002, 12:27 PM
The churches that are willing to spend their money and efforts on counseling those that faith based initiatives targets, are already doing so.

If any church has to be promised federal funding in order to promote compassion they should already have, then they need to step back and take a good look at what they're all about.

I have problems with the plan, from the government standpoint, but I also take extreme issue with any church accepting the money.

wendy
12-13-2002, 03:18 PM
I also take extreme issue with any church accepting the money.


That's an interesting point. I'm not sure how accepting money that was taken by FORCE from the citizens of a country can be rationalized as a positive role for any Church to take.

truelies
12-13-2002, 03:27 PM
WASHINGTON - President Bush today will issue a sweeping executive order directing federal agencies to let religious charities compete for social-service grants and contracts, bypassing Congress on a sensitive church-state issue..................

Whats the problem. Why should Christian Churches or para-Church organizations be banned fro competing with Planned Parenthood and AARP for grants & contracts with fed agencies? The money is going to be spent one way or another, no matter what. IMHO the Churches will do a far better job of HELPING those in need than have the current recipients of the dollars.

lgllady
12-13-2002, 03:27 PM
Someone tell me how these programs are shoving religion down the throats of anyone?


It's YOUR tax dollars supporting non-taxed entities who have lobbied hard in the past - and successfully too - to be exempt from laws requiring them to respect the very rights of the people they now want so much to help AS LONG AS THE MONEY IS THERE. In short compassion cannot be brokered and sold. That should also tell you where the Bushman is coming from.

Are there qualifications for these religious entities to actually practice their professed sudden compassion? I don't know. If you are a private or non-profit you have to know what it is you are doing. Do you honestly think deep in your heart that the pentacostal church of your choice is going to counsel and aid HIV people with compassion and without a heavy measure of judgement and preaching? Sheeeit!




It's STILL not shoving religion down anyone's throat. Especially the throats of someone that doesn't want to hear or practice
that religion.

My tax dollars go for many many things that I don't agree with. I don't like compassion being shoved down my throat. I don't want my
tax dollars supporting someone's drug habit. Since I don't like some programs and those are the very programs you support (whatever they are)
then no one has any gripe coming.

wendy
12-13-2002, 03:48 PM
I don't know how to begin to explain why forcing someone to support a RELIGION they do not follow is immoral. If you don't already sense it....nothing I can say on this forum will make you understand.

"The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment'"
James Madison, Veto, 1811

Read the HISTORY (http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/madison.html) behind the vote.

Perhaps someone should send a copy to Bush. It seems he needs a history lesson.

Ed Edwards
12-13-2002, 07:50 PM
Buzsaw: I agree and for the reasons you gave.

The objectives of the faith based initiate
are the wrong objectives for a government.
And the faith based groups should not
allow themselves to be bought off by
the government.

The main difference i see between the
Democrats and Republicans is
that the Democrats want to go to hell in a handbasket
at a 5% rate and the Republicans only want
to get to hell in the handbasket at
a 4% rate.

guido
12-14-2002, 04:32 AM
I don't know if the term "shoving religion down our throats" is really the issue.

Most sheeples pay their taxes without giving a second thought to the entity they're money is going to. People that don't give religion a second thought probably still won't, imho.

This plan, however, has so many other bad qualities that it should have never been conceived.

If you need me, I'll be busy tossing communion wafers into Boston Harbor.

;)