Is Holocaust Denial a CRIME?

[Tiger]

Yep - in some countries it is - and you can be fined or sent to prison. But is that fair? And why is it not a crime to question what happened under Stalin ?

I am going to post the entire following article - REMEMBER - these are documented reports from JEWISH authorities - amoung others. See the footnotes at the end. What you were taught in grade school has been disproven. The numbers are wrong and in many cases the stories are wrong.

Does anyone even care anymore?

In recent years, more and more attention has been devoted to the supposed danger of "Holocaust denial." Politicians, newspapers and television warn about the growing influence of those who reject the Holocaust story that some six million European Jews were systematically exterminated during the Second World War, most of them in gas chambers.

In several countries, including Israel, France, Germany and Austria, "Holocaust denial" is against the law, and "deniers" have been punished with stiff fines and prison sentences. Some frantic Jewish community leaders are calling for similar government measures in North America against so-called "deniers." In Canada, David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization, says: (note 1)

The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself.

Often overlooked in this controversy is the crucial question: Just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"?

Six Million?
Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe -- as Matas and others insist -- that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions." (note 2)

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information.

Human Soap?
Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that the Nazis didn't use Jewish fat to make soap? After examining all the evidence (including an actual bar of soap supplied by the Soviets), the Nuremberg Tribunal declared in its Judgment that "in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap." (note 3)

In 1990, though, Israel's official "Yad Vashem" Holocaust memorial agency "rewrote history" by admitting that the soap story was not true. "Historians have concluded that soap was not made from human fat. When so many people deny the Holocaust ever happened, why give them something to use against the truth?," said Yad Vashem official Shmuel Krakowski. (note 4)

Wannsee Conference?
Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he does not accept that the January 1942 "Wannsee conference" of German bureaucrats was held to set or coordinate a program of systematic mass murder of Europe's Jews? If so, Israeli Holocaust historian Yehuda Bauer must be wrong -- and a "Holocaust denier" -- because he recently declared: "The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at." In Bauer's opinion, Wannsee was a meeting but "hardly a conference" and "little of what was said there was executed in detail." (note 5)

Extermination Policy?
Is someone a "Holocaust denier" if he says that there was no order by Hitler to exterminate Europe's Jews? There was a time when the answer would have been yes. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg, for example, wrote in the 1961 edition of his study, The Destruction of the European Jews, that there were two Hitler orders for the destruction of Europe's Jews: the first given in the spring of 1941, and the second shortly thereafter. But Hilberg removed mention of any such order from the revised, three-volume edition of his book published in 1985. (note 6) As Holocaust historian Christopher Browning has noted: (note 7)

In the new edition, all references in the text to a Hitler decision or Hitler order for the "Final Solution" have been systematically excised. Buried at the bottom of a single footnote stands the solitary reference: "Chronology and circumstances point to a Hitler decision before the summer ended." In the new edition, decisions were not made and orders were not given.

A lack of hard evidence for an extermination order by Hitler has contributed to a controversy that divides Holocaust historians into "intentionalists" and "functionalists." The former contend that there was a premeditated extermination policy ordered by Hitler, while the latter hold that Germany's wartime "final solution" Jewish policy evolved at lower levels in response to circumstances. But the crucial point here is this: notwithstanding the capture of literally tons of German documents after the war, no one can point to documentary evidence of a wartime extermination order, plan or program. This was admitted by Professor Hilberg during his testimony in the 1985 trial in Toronto of German-Canadian publisher Ernst Zündel. (note 8)

Auschwitz
So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Surely a claim that most Auschwitz inmates died from disease and not systematic extermination in gas chambers would be "denial." But perhaps not. Jewish historian Arno J. Mayer, a Princeton University professor, wrote in his 1988 study Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The 'Final Solution" in History': ... From 1942 to 1945, certainly at Auschwitz, but probably overall, more Jews were killed by so-called 'natural' causes than by 'unnatural' ones." (note 9)

Even estimates of the number of people who died at Auschwitz -- allegedly the main extermination center -- are no longer clear cut. At the postwar Nuremberg Tribunal, the Allies charged that the Germans exterminated four million people at Auschwitz. (note 10) Until 1990, a memorial plaque at Auschwitz read: "Four Million People Suffered and Died Here at the Hands of the Nazi Murderers Between the Years 1940 and 1945." (note 11) During a 1979 visit to the camp, Pope John Paul II stood before this memorial and blessed the four million victims.

Is it "Holocaust denial" to dispute these four million deaths? Not today. In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million figure was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (note 12) In 1993, French Holocaust researcher Jean-Claude Pressac, in a much-discussed book about Auschwitz, estimated that altogether about 775,000 died there during the war years. (note 13)

Professor Mayer acknowledges that the question of how many really died in Auschwitz remains open. In Why Did the Heavens Not Darken? he wrote (p. 366):

... Many questions remain open ... All in all, how many bodies were cremated in Auschwitz? How many died there all told? What was the national, religious, and ethnic breakdown in this commonwealth of victims? How many of them were condemned to die a 'natural' death and how many were deliberately slaughtered? And what was the proportion of Jews among those murdered in cold blood among these gassed? We have simply no answers to these questions at this time.

Gas Chambers
What about denying the existence of extermination "gas chambers"? Here too, Mayer makes a startling statement (on page 362 of his book): "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable." While Mayer believes that such chambers did exist at Auschwitz, he points out that

most of what is known is based on the depositions of Nazi officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory of survivors and bystanders. This testimony must be screened carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of great complexity.

Höss Testimony
One example of this might be the testimony of Rudolf Höss, an SS officer who served as commandant of Auschwitz. In its Judgment, the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal quoted at length from his testimony to support its findings of extermination. (note 14)

It is now well established that H°ss' crucial testimony, as well as his so-called "confession" (which was also cited by the Nuremberg Tribunal), are not only false, but were obtained by beating the former commandant nearly to death. (note 15) H°ss' wife and children were also threatened with death and deportation to Siberia. In his statement -- which would not be admissible today in any United States court of law -- H°ss claimed the existence of an extermination camp called "Wolzek." In fact, no such camp ever existed. He further claimed that during the time that he was commandant of Auschwitz, two and a half million people were exterminated there, and that a further half million died of disease. (note 16) Today no reputable historian upholds these figures. H°ss was obviously willing to say anything, sign anything and do anything to stop the torture, and to try to save himself and his family.

Forensic Investigations
In his 1988 book, Professor Mayer calls for "excavations at the killing sites and in their immediate environs" to determine more about the gas chambers. In fact, such forensic studies have been made. The first was conducted in 1988 by American execution equipment consultant, Fred A. Leuchter, Jr. He carried out an on-site forensic examination of the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek to determine if they could have been used to kill people as claimed. After a careful study of the alleged killing facilities, Leuchter concluded that the sites were not used, and could not have been used, as homicidal gas chambers. Furthermore, an analysis of samples taken by Leuchter from the walls and floors of the alleged gas chambers showed either no or minuscule traces of cyanide compound, from the active ingredient of Zyklon B, the pesticide allegedly used to murder Jews at Auschwitz. (note 17)

A confidential forensic examination (and subsequent report) commissioned by the Auschwitz State Museum and conducted by Institute of Forensic Research in Krakow has confirmed Leuchter's finding that minimal or no traces of cyanide compound can be found in the sites alleged to have been gas chambers. (note 18)

The significance of this is evident when the results of the forensic examination of the alleged homicidal gas chambers are compared with the results of the examination of the Auschwitz disinfestation facilities, where Zyklon B was used to delouse mattresses and clothing. Whereas no or only trace amounts of cyanide were found in the alleged homicidal gas chambers, massive traces of cyanide were found in the walls and floor in the camp's disinfestation delousing chambers.

Another forensic study has been carried out by German chemist Germar Rudolf. On the basis of his on-site examination and analysis of samples, the certified chemist and doctoral candidate concluded: "For chemical-technical reasons, the claimed mass gassings with hydrocyanic acid in the alleged 'gas chambers' in Auschwitz did not take place ... The supposed facilities for mass killing in Auschwitz and Birkenau were not suitable for this purpose ..." (note 19)

Finally, there is the study of Austrian engineer Walter Lüftl, a respected expert witness in numerous court cases, and former president of Austria's professional association of engineers. In a 1992 report he called the alleged mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers "technically impossible." (note 20)

Discredited Perspective
So just what constitutes "Holocaust denial"? Those who advocate criminal persecution of "Holocaust deniers" seem to be still living in the world of 1946 where the Allied officials of the Nuremberg Tribunal have just pronounced their verdict. But the Tribunal's findings can no longer be assumed to be valid. Because it relied so heavily on such untrustworthy evidence as the H°ss testimony, some of its most critical findings are now discredited.

For purposes of their own, powerful special interest groups desperately seek to keep substantive discussion of the Holocaust story taboo. One of the ways they do this is by purposely mischaracterizing revisionist scholars as "deniers." But the truth can't be suppressed forever: There is a very real and growing controversy about what actually happened to Europe's Jews during World War II.

Let this issue be settled as all great historical controversies are resolved: through free inquiry and open debate in our journals, newspapers and classrooms.

Notes
Globe and Mail (Toronto), Jan. 22, 1992.
Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal (IMT "blue series"), Vol. 22, p. 496.
IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 496.
Globe and Mail (Toronto), April 25, 1990; See also: M. Weber, "Jewish Soap," The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.
Canadian Jewish News (Toronto), Jan. 30, 1992.
See: Barbara Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die: Report of the Evidence in the Canadian 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zndel (Toronto: Samisdat, 1992), pp. 192, 300, 349.
"The Revised Hilberg," Simon Wiesenthal Annual, Vol. 3, 1986, p. 294.
B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), pp. 24-25.
A. Mayer, Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: The 'Final Solution' in History (Pantheon, 1988), p. 365.
Nuremberg document 008-USSR.; IMT "blue series," Vol. 39, pp. 241, 261.
B. Kulaszka, ed., Did Six Million Really Die (Toronto: 1992), p. 441.
Y. Bauer, "Fighting the Distortions," Jerusalem Post (Israel), Sept. 22, 1989; Auschwitz Deaths Reduced to a Million," Daily Telegraph (London), July 17, 1990; "Poland Reduces Auschwitz Death Toll Estimate to 1 Million," The Washington Times, July 17, 1990.
J.-C. Pressac, Les Cr¦metoires d'Auschwitz: La machinerie du meurtre de masse (Paris: CNRS, 1993). See also: R. Faurisson, "Jean-Claude Pressac's New Auschwitz Book," The Journal of Historical Review, Jan.-Feb. 1994, p. 24.
IMT "blue series," Vol. 22, p. 485; Nuremberg document 3868-PS (USA-819), in IMT "blue series," Vol. 33, pp. 275-279.
Rupert Butler, Legions of Death (England: 1983), pp. 235-237; C. Hitchens, "Whose History is it?," Vanity Fair (New York), Dec. 1993, p. 117.
See: R. Faurisson, "How the British Obtained the Confession of Rudolf Höss," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1986-87, pp. 389-403.
A deluxe edition of The Leuchter Report is available from the IHR for $20.00, plus $2.00 shipping.
The complete text of this report was published in English in The Journal of Historical Review, Summer 1991.
G. Rudolf, Gutachten ueber die Bildung und Nachweisbarkeit von Cyanidverbindungen in den 'Gaskammern' von Auschwitz (London: 1993). See: The Journal of Historical Review, Nov.-Dec. 1993, pp. 25-26.
"The 'Lüftl Report'," The Journal of Historical Review, Winter 1992-93.

http://ihr.org/leaflets/denial.html

I deny any responsibility for the holocaust.

Therefore, I didn't happen as far as I'm concerned...and if it did happen, what is Germany doing to atone for the crime?

It didn't happen in reality only in our 'perception' of it. ;D

[Tiger]

I deny any responsibility for the holocaust.

Therefore, I didn't happen as far as I'm concerned...and if it did happen, what is Germany doing to atone for the crime?




YOu goof! ;D BTW - Germany paid reparations BEFORE WWII - which was one big cause of that war and has paid through the nose since.

[Tiger]

It didn't happen in reality only in our 'perception' of it. ;D



I'm making a phone call - I'm telling them to turn the wolf loose tonight! ;D

I'm making a phone call - I'm telling them to turn the wolf loose tonight! ;D


Ooooh :o

[Observer]

So we are quibbling about the difference between 6 million dead and 4.6 million dead.

I suppose that lessens the horror of what happened, right?

So we are quibbling about the difference between 6 million dead and 4.6 million dead.

I suppose that lessens the horror of what happened, right?


For the 1.4 I suppose that's a good thing.

[truelies]

I'm making a phone call - I'm telling them to turn the wolf loose tonight! ;D


You said you got rid of the wolf after it ate the llama. What gives here??????

[Tiger]

You said you got rid of the wolf after it ate the llama. What gives here??????



We did. We took it to the in-laws. Only a minute or two from lonestar's abode.

[truelies]

We did. We took it to the in-laws. Only a minute or two from lonestar's abode.


I think you're being kinda mean, putting LS at risk if he needs to visit the outhouse tonight. And isn't it a bit underhanded foisting off a known killer wolf on your dear MIL??????

[Tiger]

I think you're being kinda mean, putting LS at risk if he needs to visit the outhouse tonight. And isn't it a bit underhanded foisting off a known killer wolf on your dear MIL??????



He's not a killer. He is just a meat eater who saw a juicy meal and went after it. You eat meat too. Poor little Chief - he is only about 130 pounds with teeth three inches long. That might be an exageration somewhat.

But LS will be okay if he just does not have food smells on his clothes.

[truelies]

He's not a killer. He is just a meat eater who saw a juicy meal and went after it. You eat meat too. Poor little Chief - he is only about 130 pounds with teeth three inches long. That might be an exageration somewhat.

But LS will be okay if he just does not have food smells on his clothes.


Yes I eat meat too, but I don't run down my neighbors pets to get it!!! ;) Chief is a wolf??? Once I saw one of your pics that was labeled as a pic of Chief and I took him for a German Sheppard. Part wolf or pure???

Still if your MIL ran would he chase her ;)

[Tiger]

Yes I eat meat too, but I don't run down my neighbors pets to get it!!! ;) Chief is a wolf??? Once I saw one of your pics that was labeled as a pic of Chief and I took him for a German Sheppard. Part wolf or pure???

Still if your MIL ran would he chase her ;)






Hybrid - 85 % wolf - and no, he would NOT chase my MIL. ;)

I pet him when we visit - sometimes he bites my arms - but not hard. He will roll over and wants a tummy tickle. He is a sweetie. But - he will eat the livestock if not watched. Right now - they have a long cable where he is free to run and jump up on some structures. He can climb well. When Stinky first tried to give him to a guy here with an 8 foot fence - Chief climbed up and walked on the boards covering the top. and he could jump like crazy. But people really shouldn't breed hybrid wolves like that anymore. Many are vicious - Chief is not. wolves do not kill for fun only to eat.

Hybrid - 85 % wolf - and no, he would NOT chase my MIL. ;)

I pet him when we visit - sometimes he bites my arms - but not hard. He will roll over and wants a tummy tickle. He is a sweetie. But - he will eat the livestock if not watched. Right now - they have a long cable where he is free to run and jump up on some structures. He can climb well. When Stinky first tried to give him to a guy here with an 8 foot fence - Chief climbed up and walked on the boards covering the top. and he could jump like crazy. But people really shouldn't breed hybrid wolves like that anymore. Many are vicious - Chief is not. wolves do not kill for fun only to eat.


Just to let you know, I saw what looked like a big dog dragging an old lady down the road last night ... have you called your MIL today?

[Tiger]

Just to let you know, I saw what looked like a big dog dragging an old lady down the road last night ... have you called your MIL today?



Was it a short woman? About 4 ft tall and 4 ft around???? ;D

[ponygurl]

My sister had an exchange student sharing her home for 10 months from Berlin.
He told us the Germans are "very ashamed" of what happened . They feel they have the world's blood on their hands.
Indeed they do, but it was two generations ago.

[jeny]

My sister had an exchange student sharing her home for 10 months from Berlin.
He told us the Germans are "very ashamed" of what happened . They feel they have the world's blood on their hands.
Indeed they do, but it was two generations ago.



It's because they buy into the guilt by association BS that the left pushes. The same group of elitist idiots try to make America feel guilty for slavery. In fact, the only people guilty of the crime are the ones that did the crime.

Was it a short woman? About 4 ft tall and 4 ft around???? ;D


Hard to tell, both legs were chewed off. ;D

[ponygurl]

It's because they buy into the guilt by association BS that the left pushes. The same group of elitist idiots try to make America feel guilty for slavery. In fact, the only people guilty of the crime are the ones that did the crime.

yes.. I agree. But pride of our Country is sewn into us, and when a country does a horrid thing, it's hard to not feel responsible.

[ponygurl]

Hard to tell, both legs were chewed off. ;D

My Gawd.. :o

[kathleen]

yes.. I agree. But pride of our Country is sewn into us, and when a country does a horrid thing, it's hard to not feel responsible.


Nationalism is not necessarily a given in everyone.

Thank God for anarchists. ;)

[ponygurl]

Nationalism is not necessarily a given in everyone.

Thank God for anarchists. ;)

i was thinking of you while i posted.. I knew you would disagree. ;D

[jeny]

yes.. I agree. But pride of our Country is sewn into us, and when a country does a horrid thing, it's hard to not feel responsible.


Just like anything else, this can be taken, or pushed, too far. I feel bad that slavery happened, but I do not feel the least bit responsible for it, nor do I think I should pay for it through reparations. <<shrug>> Maybe I'm a bad American.

In any case, present day German's should not feel the least bit responsible for the holocaust, even if they DO believe it was a horrible thing to have happened, and it was, of course.

[kathleen]

i was thinking of you while i posted.. I knew you would disagree. ;D


Quite frankly, I used to proud to be Canadian, not so long ago.

Not anymore. Dictator Chretien and his cronies had a lot to do with that. :(

[ponygurl]

Quite frankly, I used to proud to be Canadian, not so long ago.

Not anymore. Dictator Chretien and his cronies had a lot to do with that. :(

his gig's up. He SAYS he isn't running again.

[LanceALott]

Jenny: It's because they buy into the guilt by association BS that the left pushes.

LaL: Oh, my God! What a simplistic cop out!--Some people are trying to get you to take an honest look at what it happened, SO WE DO NOT REPEAT IT with some other scapegoat like the blacks, the poor, the liberals, the Left.

Guilt by association, and you can write it off as some Left throwing shit at you. That attituted is precisely how it happened, good people in Germany accepting what the right wing told them had to be done: "It ain't my fault, Man." It wasn't me. I didn't do it, and never would. I AM NOT RESPOPNSIBLE! So I don't have to accept the guilt; nor do I have to wonder how it could have hapened in the first place."

Blink you eyes like a dumjb blond, and you insure it will happen again. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE, YOU ARE IRRESPONSIBLE!

Cause and Effect, seems beyond your simplistic good/evil world.

[ponygurl]

Jenny: It's because they buy into the guilt by association BS that the left pushes.

LaL: Oh, my God! What a simplistic cop out!--Some people are trying to get you to take an honest look at what it happened, SO WE DO NOT REPEAT IT with some other scapegoat like the blacks, the poor, the liberals, the Left.

Guilt by association, and you can write it off as some Left throwing shit at you. That attituted is precisely how it happened, good people in Germany accepting what the right wing told them had to be done: "It ain't my fault, Man." It wasn't me. I didn't do it, and never would. I AM NOT RESPOPNSIBLE! So I don't have to accept the guilt; nor do I have to wonder how it could have hapened in the first place."

Blink you eyes like a dumjb blond, and you insure it will happen again. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE, YOU ARE IRRESPONSIBLE!

Cause and Effect, seems beyond your simplistic good/evil world.

Acceptance? Or fear. Kill or be killed.. don't you think?

[jeny]

Jenny: It's because they buy into the guilt by association BS that the left pushes.

LaL: Oh, my God! What a simplistic cop out!--Some people are trying to get you to take an honest look at what it happened, SO WE DO NOT REPEAT IT with some other scapegoat like the blacks, the poor, the liberals, the Left.

Guilt by association, and you can write it off as some Left throwing shit at you. That attituted is precisely how it happened, good people in Germany accepting what the right wing told them had to be done: "It ain't my fault, Man." It wasn't me. I didn't do it, and never would. I AM NOT RESPOPNSIBLE! So I don't have to accept the guilt; nor do I have to wonder how it could have hapened in the first place."

Blink you eyes like a dumjb blond, and you insure it will happen again. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE, YOU ARE IRRESPONSIBLE!

Cause and Effect, seems beyond your simplistic good/evil world.




Oh, you're right, let me run downstairs and free all the slaves I've been keeping for a rainy day, oh and while I'm at it, I'll disassemble the gas chamber I had built to kill all the jews. ::) Just because YOU feel guilty for stuff you didn't do doesn't mean the rest of us should feel guilty for stuff we didn't do. ::)

[Observer]

Oh, you're right, let me run downstairs and free all the slaves I've been keeping for a rainy day, oh and while I'm at it, I'll disassemble the gas chamber I had built to kill all the jews.

I knew it! There has always been something about you that was a little..... different.

[jeny]

I knew it! There has always been something about you that was a little..... different.



Didn't you know that I started that thread about you to ascertain whether or not you were a good candidate for my gas chamber? :D

[Observer]

Evil DOES come in small packages...

[jeny]

Evil DOES come in small packages...


Don't you forget it!!

[LanceALott]

Pony: Acceptance? Or fear. Kill or be killed.. don't you think?

LaL: Yes, that's exactly what it was. Germany was desperate. When Hitler's lunatic fringe of the right wing seized power, the Left wing had no solutiuons to the hopless problems Germany faced.

Because of losing World War I, Germany entered the Great Depression before the rest of the world did, and the Depression got much deeper and much more hopless for them. They were starving, while the allies took everything their economy produced for reparations. They were between a rock and a hard place, and Hitler (Like Dubya) was the only one stupid enough to take the lead, even though he had no solutions either.

His hatred for Marx, and for what he called the Jewish Conspiracy of (Communism) handed the Nazis a convienient scapegoat to blame at first, and from name calling, the Nazi actions escalated to the Holycost, when there simply was not enough food to feed Germany.--So the Final Solution was to execute his "worthless eaters," and give their food to his "valuable" army.

AND ALONG COMES NICE GOOD GUY JENNY AND HER NEO-NAZI RIGHT WING HALF A CENTORY LATER. Now her verbal scapegoat is the "liberals" or the Left (Commies by a different name) , or in some cases the "worthless eaters are simply helpless people on welfare."--

And when things get as bad for Jenny as they were for Hitler and his Germans, smug Jenny who never owned any slaves would give the same orders for her Final Solution as Hitler did to feed her gang of "good guys": KILL THE COMMIES!

[jeny]

AND ALONG COMES NICE GOOD GUY JENNY AND HER NEO-NAZI RIGHT WING HALF A CENTORY LATER. Now her verbal scapegoat is the "liberals" or the Left (Commies by a different name) , or in some cases the "worthless eaters are simply helpless people on welfare."--

You don't know me that well. I would feed you off my own plate if you needed it.

And when things get as bad for Jenny as they were for Hitler and his Germans, smug Jenny who never owned any slaves would give the same orders for her Final Solution as Hitler did to feed her gang of "good guys": KILL THE COMMIES!

If the commies would stop taking my money at such an alarming rate, I could feed more people on my own.

[truelies]

Jeny you are TOO kind. I would make him eat off a paper plate standing at the kitchen counter. ;)

[jeny]

Jeny you are TOO kind. I would make him eat off a paper plate standing at the kitchen counter. ;)



Darling, as a mother of a todler, I OFTEN eat my dinner standing at the kitchen counter, although hardly ever off of paper plates. :-*


And BTW LAL, By commies, I mean the republicans AND the democrats who seek to control our lives through the theft of our money and suppression of our thoughts. If we let the world go the way YOU seem to want it to go, we will be slaves in our minds.

[Tiger]

So now I read that Romania is scrambling over some nasty remarks about the Holocaust made by their President.

Romania's foreign minister moved on Monday to defuse a blistering row with Israel over remarks by President Ion Iliescu about the Holocaust, promising fence-mending talks with his Israeli counterpart soon.


Well - that sounds pretty shitty alright. Let's take a look at what that son of a bitch said!

"the Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust".


I kept reading the article to see if there was something worse - nope - that's it. And even though Hitler was responsible for millions of non-Jew deaths - those guys dont seem to count. Even though 50 million died in that conflict - including many Americans - no one - NO ONE is important enough to be considered but the Chosen.

If that does not make you sick - it should.

No life is any more valuable than any other life.

And no one - no matter WHAT they idiots say - is chosen.

http://www.prolog.net/webnews/wed/cn/Qromania-israel-holocaust.RxS4_DlS.html

[wendy]

From your article:

The Nazi regime in Germany killed millions of non-Jews during World War II, including Poles and leftists, but Israel insists that the term Holocaust be reserved for the six million Jews estimated to have lost their lives.

Israel can insist whatever they want but they aren't in charge of changing the meaning of words.

I wish we had a more balanced history of what happened, who was targeted and why.

So now I read that Romania is scrambling over some nasty remarks about the Holocaust made by their President.Well - that sounds pretty shitty alright. Let's take a look at what that son of a bitch said! I kept reading the article to see if there was something worse - nope - that's it. And even though Hitler was responsible for millions of non-Jew deaths - those guys dont seem to count. Even though 50 million died in that conflict - including many Americans - no one - NO ONE is important enough to be considered but the Chosen.

If that does not make you sick - it should.

No life is any more valuable than any other life.

And no one - no matter WHAT they idiots say - is chosen.

http://www.prolog.net/webnews/wed/cn/Qromania-israel-holocaust.RxS4_DlS.html


Fuck the Jews.

<No offense intended..as always>

[Tiger]

From your article:

The Nazi regime in Germany killed millions of non-Jews during World War II, including Poles and leftists, but Israel insists that the term Holocaust be reserved for the six million Jews estimated to have lost their lives.

Israel can insist whatever they want but they aren't in charge of changing the meaning of words.

I wish we had a more balanced history of what happened, who was targeted and why.



I do too. My dad fought in that war and he would do it all over again (were he not really old right now ;) ), but he witnessed Americans, FRench, Germans, Austrians and many others killed - but they don't get the same billing. That has always been my gripe. Just tell the story the way it was. The evil of Hitler is not lessened by acknowledging the tragedy of others.

[Tiger]

Fuck the Jews.

<No offense intended..as always>



None taken. <as always> 8)

Are we really talking "Holocaust™" here? WTF? ::)

[Observer]

I initially read this...

I would feed you off my own plate

as...

I would feed off you on my own plate

Jeny shot up about twenty points in my esteem until I went back and read it again.

Just like anything else, this can be taken, or pushed, too far. I feel bad that slavery happened, but I do not feel the least bit responsible for it, nor do I think I should pay for it through reparations. <<shrug>> Maybe I'm a bad American.

In any case, present day German's should not feel the least bit responsible for the holocaust, even if they DO believe it was a horrible thing to have happened, and it was, of course.


I don't feel bad that slaveryhappened. It was completely common up to that point in history. It was very commonplace in Africa at that time. The Europeans probably got the idea after they arrived there. It was a necessary economic component of the early success of the colonies. That helped drive the colonials toward the need to break from England because of the unfair taxation and crap.

I don't believe holocaust denial is or should be a crime. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, their racism, their idiocy, etc. I've said it before, that I think much of it IS driven by antisemitism but that is not a crime...it is just ignorance.

[jeny]

I initially read this...as...Jeny shot up about twenty points in my esteem until I went back and read it again.



;D

Well if the need ever arose and it was my survival or my kid's at stake, that would be an option. :-X

I don't believe holocaust denial is or should be a crime. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, their racism, their idiocy, etc. I've said it before, that I think much of it IS driven by antisemitism but that is not a crime...it is just ignorance.


Why is antisemitism a crmie and anticaucasianism is readily accepted?

What's good for the Jew is good for you.

[kathleen]

his gig's up. He SAYS he isn't running again.


I doubt the party would allow him to stay on as leader. Martin and "his" cronies know the harm that might happen if Chretien stays on.

Doesn't matter if he does retire or not, the damage has been done. His policies (mostly socialist in nature) will live on without him. Unfortunately for us. :(

[ponygurl]

The holocaust was not just a slaughter of jews, but of anyone who dared step over the line of the nazi regime.
One of our residents lived in Holland during nazi occupation. The Nazi's occupied not only their land, but their food supply. In order to feed families, they developed an underground system for any suppiles they might need. They lived in fear, for if they were discovered, the men and their families would be subject to the Hitler's insanity.
If they dared help a Jew, they were shot or shoved into concentration camps. Canada is full of people who toed the line for Nazi law to get their asses out alive.

[Tiger]

I don't believe holocaust denial is or should be a crime. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, their racism, their idiocy, etc. I've said it before, that I think much of it IS driven by antisemitism but that is not a crime...it is just ignorance.



OAG - you seem to have missed the point. In the original post - it showed a number of revisions to the holocaust by Jewish scholars themselves.

But if any non-Jew speaks of these "already substantiated" facts - they can be arrested or fined in some countries.

Is that appropriate? Is it fair to deny that others died in that conflict? The point is that folks can get arrested for speaking the truth. Is that what you want?

[Observer]

If the point of the thread is to question whether "Holocaust denial" should be a crime, I would have to say absolutely not.

If the point is to trivialize what happened to European Jews because the numbers are off, or because they weren't the ONLY ones persecuted, I would have to object.

[ponygurl]

If the point of the thread is to question whether "Holocaust denial" should be a crime, I would have to say absolutely not.

If the point is to trivialize what happened to European because the numbers are off, or because they weren't the ONLY ones persecuted, I would have to object.

I think to trivialize what happened is indeed a crime.. maybe not punishable by jail time or fines.. but a crime none the less.
To NOT teach our children the truth of what happened is to not honour their ancestors memories and growth. We MUST teach about the horrors of the past in order to educate future generations and give them the knowledge to attempt to prevent things like that happening in the future.
I DO think that misrepresentation of the Holocaust in a school setting should be treated as a crime. Punishable.

[LanceALott]

Jenny: I would feed you off my own plate if you needed it.

LaL: But who would you feed me too?

[Tiger]

I think to trivialize what happened is indeed a crime.. maybe not punishable by jail time or fines.. but a crime none the less.
To NOT teach our children the truth of what happened is to not honour their ancestors memories and growth. We MUST teach about the horrors of the past in order to educate future generations and give them the knowledge to attempt to prevent things like that happening in the future.
I DO think that misrepresentation of the Holocaust in a school setting should be treated as a crime. Punishable.












Unfortunately, misrepresenting History in a school setting is a centuries-old ploy. In the States - the Civil War has been grossly misrepresented.

But when you say that misrepresenting the holocaust should be punishable - would you punish both sides? I mean - there are still those who teach that 6 million jews died at Hitler's hand. Some still teach that soap was a by-product of the Jews' bodies. Would you punish them?

Or would you mainly punish those who minimized the horrors the Jews suffered through?


I think you have a great sense of fairness - but I fear that History rarely represents the truth of the matter. I think textbooks are usually written by those who want to influence the feelings and emotions of others. I remember as a child I was shown videos of dead bodies being pushed into mass graves in school - Jewish bodies - and I did not even realise that the Jews were only a tiny tiny minority of those killed in that conflict. The things I was shown were a deliberate attempt to deny any wrong-doing of the Jewish people and to demonize Hitler. And it worked. I could almost feel Anne Frank's heartbeat as she hid in the attic.

Of course in later years - I learned the truth of the economics that electd Hitler - how he was supported and put in office by an Ogilarchy - and how much of Germany was in dire economic straits at the time from reparations foisted unfairly upon them after WWII.

None of that excuses Hitler's behavior - but I still find it expedient to know the whole truth and not just little bits intended to sway the opinions of the young masses.

OAG - you seem to have missed the point. In the original post - it showed a number of revisions to the holocaust by Jewish scholars themselves.

But if any non-Jew speaks of these "already substantiated" facts - they can be arrested or fined in some countries.

Is that appropriate? Is it fair to deny that others died in that conflict? The point is that folks can get arrested for speaking the truth. Is that what you want?


Reread my post Tigs dear. I said it shouldn't be a crime. Then I said it isn't criminal just ignorance. I don't give a flying firetruck if someone is a racist. I just write them off as too stupid to bother with. Anti-semites abound in this world and I couldn't care less until they start rewriting history or get in my face in some other fashion. Most of the time racists are just laughable buffoons. Trying to pass laws against the way people think and feel is as assinine as it gets. Making a law against racism just makes you as stupid as the racists.

[Observer]

Making a law against racism just makes you as stupid as the racists.

Can't argue with that.

[Tiger]

Reread my post Tigs dear. I said it shouldn't be a crime. Then I said it isn't criminal just ignorance. I don't give a flying firetruck if someone is a racist. I just write them off as too stupid to bother with. Anti-semites abound in this world and I couldn't care less until they start rewriting history or get in my face in some other fashion. Most of the time racists are just laughable buffoons. Trying to pass laws against the way people think and feel is as assinine as it gets. Making a law against racism just makes you as stupid as the racists.



I still hear you calling those who cite the Jewish scholar's findings to be 'racist' or 'anti-semitic'.

Is that what you meant? My point is that it is NORMAL folks who just want the truth who are citing these guys - not racists.

I still hear you calling those who cite the Jewish scholar's findings to be 'racist' or 'anti-semitic'.

Is that what you meant? My point is that it is NORMAL folks who just want the truth who are citing these guys - not racists.

My point is that it is still a witch hunt. The people who are merely interested in accurate historical fact are being lumped in with those with ulterior motives. Also the latter are slipping in among the legits. Either way the fact that people are trying to make laws against racism is the root of the fallout. It is the backlash against antisemitism that causes the hysteria over holocaust revision. MY point was that if people would just get over the fact that SOME people are racists and stop trying to make laws against that particular ignorance, the witch hunt would end.

I fail to see why you've missed my point that it doesn't matter if someone is racially motivated or not. Let them all have their say. Intelligent people can see for themselves who's a racist dickhead and who's a legit scholar. Laws against racism are stupid. Now I've said it for a third time maybe you'll get where I'm coming from.

[ponygurl]

As generations pass.. the accurate details will become more and more inaccurate.. as the survivors who actually do know what happened pass on.
This is kind of a different tangent, but we have a local radio talk show that has many regular callers. This one asshole actually believes, and states so rebularly on the talk show, that the holocaust is a fallacy. He has debated against SURVIVORS..and tells them they are full of shit... meremly prisoners of war, they were. Him.. he should be shot and pissed on.. in my Dad's words.
But then.. he's just one insane radical out there.. everyone thinks.. what good is punishing one idiot that minimalizes a tragedy. Perhaps they are right. Perhaps it is a witch hunt to start punishing freedom of speech, no matter how off the wall it is.

Nah. We should employ the old Inquisition method. Their thinking should be made right by the careful use of torture. They should then be made to give up the names of 3 more holocaust deniers so they can be made to think right the same way. I'll bet in no time we'd have the whole world agreeing that the holocaust happened just the way we say it did.

To deny the Holocaust is to deny that the sun will rise in the morning, or that water is wet, or that fire is hot.

Only a fool, or a German too ashamed to face the history of his nation, would deny the truth.

[Tiger]

To deny the Holocaust is to deny that the sun will rise in the morning, or that water is wet, or that fire is hot.

Only a fool, or a German too ashamed to face the history of his nation, would deny the truth.



Okay - I pretty sure I DO know who you are now, Judah. Welcome to our humble little forum. There is a lot of reading between the lines that needs to be done here - but I am glad you joined us. ;)

To deny the Holocaust is to deny that the sun will rise in the morning, or that water is wet, or that fire is hot.

Only a fool, or a German too ashamed to face the history of his nation, would deny the truth.


Who's denying the Holocaust? What I want to know is why 6 million people couldn't get off their lalzy asses and protect themselves, or at least fight back, and rely on the rest of the world to do it for them?

That's where the Jews are culpable in this event. They LET it happen.

Okay - I pretty sure I DO know who you are now, Judah. Welcome to our humble little forum. There is a lot of reading between the lines that needs to be done here - but I am glad you joined us. ;)


Who the hell is it?

[Tiger]

Who's denying the Holocaust? What I want to know is why 6 million people couldn't get off their lalzy asses and protect themselves, or at least fight back, and rely on the rest of the world to do it for them?

That's where the Jews are culpable in this event. They LET it happen.



Good point. I never really thought about it that way before - but it is very very true.

Good point. I never really thought about it that way before - but it is very very true.


I don't think too many in Europe at the time could stand up aganist Germany, hell they conquered Europe so why blame one group for not 'defending' themselves?

I don't think too many in Europe at the time could stand up aganist Germany, hell they conquered Europe so why blame one group for not 'defending' themselves?


If you knew you were going to be exterminated, would you wait around for it to happen?

If you knew you were going to be exterminated, would you wait around for it to happen?


Did they even know they were going to be exterminated? And it's not like 6 million were living on the same block. They had no guns and no way to fight back anyway, they were just in the wrong place at the right time.

Did they even know they were going to be exterminated? And it's not like 6 million were living on the same block. They had no guns and no way to fight back anyway, they were just in the wrong place at the right time.


I don't think the Jews are stupid people and your suggestion that they wouldn't realize the Goldbergs, the Greenbergs and all the other bergs had systematicallly "disappeared" is rather demeaning. I think their having to wear the Star of David on their clothing might have been a "clue" that they were perhaps targeted? ::)

When you know you are being led to the slaughter, you don't just sit on your ass and do nothing. Well, I wouldn't. I hold the Jews culpable in their own destruction. Why? Because they didn't do anything except be herded like sheep.

I don't think the Jews are stupid people and your suggestion that they wouldn't realize the Goldbergs, the Greenbergs and all the other bergs had systematicallly "disappeared" is rather demeaning. I think their having to wear the Star of David on their clothing might have been a "clue" that they were perhaps targeted? ::)

When you know you are being led to the slaughter, you don't just sit on your ass and do nothing. Well, I wouldn't. I hold the Jews culpable in their own destruction. Why? Because they didn't do anything except be herded like sheep.


Well you have one group entrenched with their little shops and careers and peaceful type of people who had no guns and who were caught off guard by a hyped-up military killing machine with a fever pitch hatred towards you ... what are the odds? You may have fought, for a second or two but you too would have been crushed when you consider it took the combined efforts of many nations just to bring one nation down.

Other than that, the Jews never should have been settled in Germany or Russia or anywhere else except in Israel, that is their real country and if it took the holocaust to get them there then so be it.

Well you have one group entrenched with their little shops and careers and peaceful type of people who had no guns and who were caught off guard by a hyped-up military killing machine with a fever pitch hatred towards you ... what are the odds? You may have fought, for a second or two but you too would have been crushed when you consider it took the combined efforts of many nations just to bring one nation down.

Other than that, the Jews never should have been settled in Germany or Russia or anywhere else except in Israel, that is their real country and if it took the holocaust to get them there then so be it.


Better to die on your feet fighting for your life than to be led to a gas chamber and go silently in the night.

Better to die on your feet fighting for your life than to be led to a gas chamber and go silently in the night.


I agree ... if I knew I was going to the gas chamber. Too many of them thought they were going to be detained and worked as slaves. Who knew about the gas chambers in 1943? Not too many outside of the German leadership.

I believe some did rise up in Poland and were crushed.

I believe some did rise up in Poland and were crushed.


Then those who rose up should be deducted from the numbers of casualties of the holocaust because they were warriors and not civilians.

There is a fine line between being a victim and a casualty of war.

Anyone not willing to fight for their life, in my opinion, doesn't deserve it.

[Tiger]

LS,

Do you really think that Hitler hated the Jews just because they thought they were chosen? Or because they were too kind and weak to fight?

Hitler (and most Germans) hated them because of the trouble they caused the government.

WWII did not happen in a vaccuum. Those innocent Jews were considered traitors to Germany. Were they? I don't know - but they had been stirring up trouble for some time.

http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/collections/exhibits/tam/JLC/images/3pic1.jpg




http://www.nyu.edu/library/bobst/collections/exhibits/tam/JLC/images/3pic3.jpg



Look at that crowd. Are you telling me that not ONE of them could take the Furher out? ::)

What I find criminal is that the Jews did nothing about their situation, they had the money, they controlled the economy...they were businessmen and women. How dare they not negotiate with their oppressors and buy themselves out of the situation? Money buys everything...even Hitler.

No doubt somewhere along the line, the Jews began negotiating for their salvation and were trying to make too good of a deal to the point where the Germans said "We'll just take it."

Gotta know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.


In the meantime, fifty fucking years of worldwide guilt is a bit much.

LS,

Do you really think that Hitler hated the Jews just because they thought they were chosen? Or because they were too kind and weak to fight?

Hitler (and most Germans) hated them because of the trouble they caused the government.

WWII did not happen in a vaccuum. Those innocent Jews were considered traitors to Germany. Were they? I don't know - but they had been stirring up trouble for some time.








Look at that crowd. Are you telling me that not ONE of them could take the Furher out? ::)


I really don't know what you're talking about. ;D

[Tiger]

I agree, BN. They wanted all or nothing at the begining and it served to be their downfall.

Had the situation not been so volatile and the feelings against Zionism so strong - the Jews might not have been such strong targets.

Germany had such HUGE reparations to pay from WWI and that most considered to be the fault of the Zionists.

Sentiment was strong against them - not because they thought themselves chosen but because they were in places to manipulate and control the money.

Consider this from the book "The Lusitainia"

Without going into all the truly ugly details, of which books have been written, suffice it to say that: Woodrow Wilson, Mandel House, J .P. Morgan (a Rothschild agent) and Winston Churchill (First Lord of the Admiralty at the time) conspired together to ensure that the passenger ship, Lusitania -- carrying 1,195 passengers, 195 of which were Americans -- would be sunk by a German U-boat.



http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/wwi.htm


Zionists have been behind the scenes of many conflicts - but the Jews have become VERY good at inciting others to fight for what benefits them. Then they can maintain the perpetual "victim" status. They can sure set up the attacks and then let others take credit. After WWI - the Germans were sick and tired of being led around by the nose by the Jews and they did the wrong thing - big time.

But the holocaust did NOT happen in a vaccuum. There were reasons.

[Observer]

Without going into all the truly ugly details,

Without details, that statement is meaningless.

It is kind of interesting to watch this thread develop. It has gone from "Should question the Holocaust be a crime" to "They could have stopped it if they wanted to." to "It was their own fault."

I lived in Germany for about 10 years. I went to school there. I have discussed the World War II era for many hours with people who lived through it, in Germany.

For many Germans, full realization of what was happening in the concentration camps did not come about until things fell apart, and they started being liberated. I think it is safe to say that the majority of Johann Schmidts who lived and worked in the cities did not know the full extent of what happened to their Jewish neighbors when they were rounded up and carted away.

A certain amount of that came from not wanting to know. A certain amount of that came from not wanting to believe what they DID hear.
A certain amount of that came from the efficiency of the organizations responsible for implementing the "Final Solution".

Most of the Death Camps were not located in Germany. They were constructed in occupied countries for very specific reasons. Among those was the desire to make sure that the average German citizen did not see them.

I have spoken with camp survivors and have been told over and over again that they did not resist because they did not believe that such a thing could happen. Again, chalk a lot of that up to denial. It is much less unpleasant to think you are merely being relocated than it is to know you are going to be killed, whether it is by being worked and starved to death, a bullet to the back of the neck, or gassing. There were also a great many who right up to the moment they boarded the trains did not think their Gentile German neighbors would permit such a thing to happen.

There WERE uprisings. Read about the Warsaw Ghetto. Read about the revolt of the Sondercommando in Auschwitz. Of course, they all failed. German efficiency reached its peak under the Third Reich.

When I get home this evening, I will dig out a book that contains nothing but letters, diary entries, and copies of official German documents, written by members of the SS, members of the Wehrmacht, and government officials who either actually participated in or witnessed first hand the atrocities for which some of you would actually blame the victims.

Get the book. Read it. Then post some more revisionist nonsense, if you have the stomach for it.


BN,
I too have asked why in a camp with 200 guards and 25000 prisoners, they didn't revolt. It seemed to me that the guards would not even had enough ammo to kill them all. SOMEBODY would have been able to walk away.

It took quite a while to understand why resistance was so limited. I would have gone out resisting to the end, as I have no doubt you would have, but if you really look at what was happening in Germany during that time frame and the mindset of the people, whether Jew or Gentile, you start to get it.

Think of an entire nation of battered wives.

[LanceALott]

The Holocsut happened.

It was a horrible crime against humanity, not just against us/the Jews.

But, I agree with Badnews: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Fifty years of victim status has worn thin, and for me it can in no way sanction the war crimes Jews are now doing to the Palestinians.

The Jews are now the abused child that has grown up to become the abuser. They are the new Nazis.

To deny the Holocaust is to deny that the sun will rise in the morning, or that water is wet, or that fire is hot.

Only a fool, or a German too ashamed to face the history of his nation, would deny the truth.


No one is denying the Holocaust. We just want the Jews to finally admit that they don't corner the market on human suffering. Jews were not the only people who suffered under the Nazis, and they for damn sure weren't the first group to face genocide. Who here knows anything about the Armenian Genocide? What about what happened to the indigenous peoples of the Americas? What about the witch hunts?

I've said it many times before, no one whines as good as a Jew, except maybe blacks.

[Observer]

We just want the Jews to finally admit that they don't corner the market on human suffering.

Maybe I haven't been around enough, but I have NEVER met a Jew who claimed they were the ONLY ones persecuted by the Nazi regime. Like anyone else, they focus on what happened to them, their friends, their families...

Perhaps if you were the subject of a determined effort to eradicate you, your blood line, and everyone who shares your religious and cultural heritage, you might "whine" about it, as well.

And, for what its worth, I live on the edge of a res, and I don't think I have ever heard any of the local Indians complain about what happened to the Jews... but mention Kit Carson, Custer or Onate, and listen to them whine. It is human nature to focus on what has impacted on YOU or your ancestors.

I've said it before. The primary reason for targetting and rounding up the Jews, IMHO, was merely confiscation of wealth. Declare them nonentities and they and their children have no claim to anything. Once the Third Reich saw that they could get away with that without the peasants revolting the rest just became a matter of taking it to the extreme. It almost seems to me that Hitler, et al, did it somewhat slowly and let people get accostomed to their new lack of status and then escalated it bit by bit. I think the abused wife analogy is good. Once the abuser realizes he's gotten away with a little it gives him the go ahead to escalate.

[LanceALott]

My Holocaust denial: IT WASN'T ME!

[Observer]

I am sure of that. It was too well thought out, organized and executed to have been you.

Im shocked at your comment.....shocked !

Maybe I haven't been around enough, but I have NEVER met a Jew who claimed they were the ONLY ones persecuted by the Nazi regime. Like anyone else, they focus on what happened to them, their friends, their families...

Perhaps if you were the subject of a determined effort to eradicate you, your blood line, and everyone who shares your religious and cultural heritage, you might "whine" about it, as well.

And, for what its worth, I live on the edge of a res, and I don't think I have ever heard any of the local Indians complain about what happened to the Jews... but mention Kit Carson, Custer or Onate, and listen to them whine. It is human nature to focus on what has impacted on YOU or your ancestors.


I've never once heard a single Jew have any sympathy for anyone but themselves. I have, however, heard quite a few Indians show a great deal of sympathy toward the Jews, blacks, the Armenians, etc. I remember once when an Indian artist was asked to paint a Holocaust memorial mural, he was sued by the ADL because he not only included the Jews in his mural but several other groups of people. They were offended that he dared compare the genocide of others in what was to spotlight the obvious fact that the Jews are the only group of people to ever suffer in this world.

[lgllady]

Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it.

If the holocaust is denied, someday even the memory of it will not exist. Then it will be quite simple for it to happen again.

Most legitimate historians insist on accuracy down to the tiniest detail so that the errors of the past should not be repeated and the successes emulated. As modern day illegitimate historians revise history according to what should have happened in their view of the world, the truth starts to fade away.

How many high school students know that Cleopatra wasn't black? By insisting she was black, the entire history of Egypt needs to be changed and the fact that Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great has to be eliminated.

The American Revolution is a footnote in a morass of how terrible the original settlers of this nation were. Some schools, teaching revisionsist history are so disgusted by what they know only of revisionst history that they have removed portraits of George Washington. One town in Oregon completely removed a bronze statue of a pioneer family because they didn't want to honor killers. This is because history has been revised.

Allow holocaust deniers to deny, then revise history and we will end up with Adolph Hitler being a kindly man who was murdered in his bed by jealous Jews.

[Observer]

Im shocked at your comment.....shocked !

Who is this idiot?

Who is this idiot?


Check out the Inferno, New Kid on the Block; it'll be good for a laugh.

Who is this idiot?


Someone playing games.

[jeny]

Who is this idiot?


Yukon?

Yukon?


Maybe someone from EZ over here to slum with the scumbags?

[jeny]

Maybe someone from EZ over here to slum with the scumbags?



They've got THAT backwards then

They've got THAT backwards then


True, but they're not at all worth slumming with.

[ilovelucy]

The truth is that there have been several holocausts in which a government has systematically murdered its own people....

The German Holocaust was one such event.

There was a Russian Holocaust and a Chinese Holocaust and a Cambodian Holocaust and now a Holocaust in Southern Africa....

Perhaps more that I am not mentioning.

hmmmm.

Th trut is that there have been several holocausts in which a government has systematically murdered its own people....

The German Holocaust was one such event.

There was a Russian Holocaust and a Chinese Holocaust and a Cambodian Holocaust and now a Holocaust in Southern Africa....

Perhaps more that I am not mentioning.

hmmmm.


Way more, some of them actually surpass the German Holocaust in sheer cruelty. The reason the German Holocaust stands out is because of the almost industrial nature of the murders. If someone could make the process of murdering an entire race clean, the Germans came pretty close, which in mind makes the entire truly hideous because it wasn't just murder; they tried to make genocide mechanical.

[Observer]

Lucy,

There are many you are not mentioning. You're absolutely right.

I think that what makes the German Holocaust seem so much more terrible than the rest is the cold, ruthless efficiency with which it was carried out.

The book I mentioned earlier this afternoon is called:

The Good Old Days

Edited by Ernst Klee, Willi Dressen, and Volker Reiss.
ISBN: 1-56852-133-2
Copyright: 1988 by S. Fischer Verlag GmbH

The book was originally published in Germany. It is a collection of letters, diary entries, and official records by personnel who either participated or personally witnessed the mass executions in the occupied territories.

It is something that really should be read by all, particularly anyone with an inclination to dismiss or trivialize the events of that time.

Let's look at a small sample...

This is a report called the "Jager Report"

The Commander of the Security Police and the SD
EinsatzKommando 3 Kauen (Kaunas), 1 December 1941


Secret Reich Business 5 copies
4th copy

Complete List of Executions Carried Out in the EK3 Area up to December 1941

Security Police duties in Lithuania taken over by Einsatzkommando 3 on 2 July 1941.

(The Wilna (Vilnius) area taken over by EK3 on 9 August 1941, the Schaulen area on 2 October 1941. Up until these dates EK9 operated in Wilna and EK2 in Schaulen.)

On my instructions and orders the following executions were conducted by Lithuanian partisans:

4.7.41 Kauen - Fort VII - 416 Jews, 47 Jewesses 463
6.7.41 Kauen - Fort VII - Jews 2,514

Following the formation of a raiding squad under the command of SS Obersturmfuhrer Hamann and 8-10 reliable men from the Einsatzkommando the following actions were conducted in cooperation with Lithuanian partisans.

7.7.41MariampoleJews32

8.7.41Mariampole14 Jews, 5 Communist Officials19

8.7.41GirkalineiCommunist Officials6

9.7.41Wendziogala32 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian (f)
2 Lithuanian Communists, 1 Russian Comm.38

9.7.41Kauen - FortVII21 Jews, 3 Jewesses24

14.7.41Mariampole21 Jews, 1 Russian, 9 Lithuanian Communists39

17.7.41Babtei8 Communist Officials (including 6 Jews)8

18.7.41Mariampole39 Jews, 14 Jewesses53

19.7.41Kauen - Fort VII17 Jews, 2 Jewesses, 4 Lithuaninan Comms.
2 Communist Lithuanians (f), 1 German Comm.26

21.7.41Panevezys59 Jews, 11 Jewesses, 1 Lithuanian (f)
1 Pole, 22 Lithuanian Communists,
9 Russian Communists103

22.7.41Panevezys1 Jew1

23.7.41Kendainiai83 Jews, 12 Jewesses
14 Russian Communists
15 Lithuanian Communists
1 Russian O-Politruk125

25.7.41Mariampole90 Jews, 13 Jewesses103

28.7.41Panevezys234 Jews, 15 Jewesses
19 Russian Communists
20 Lithuanian Communists288

Total Carried Over:3834



That was page 1 of a 9 page report. SS Standartenfuhrer Karl Jager became more efficient as the months passed. His total at the end of November 1941 was 137,346. That was one sector in Lithuania during a 5 month period in 1941.

That was before they got good at it. They were still shooting them.

On June 5, 1942, Dr. August Becker reported to SS Obersturmbannfuhrer Rauff on the efficiency of "gas vans"

Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed using three vans, without any faults occurring in the vehicles

That was 3 vans in one location. They were getting better.

I am not going to go on. The numbers add up pretty quickly...

I don't know what happened to the alignment of the numbers. That is not how it previewed. You can still get the idea.

[CaptainKirk]

I am sure of that. It was too well thought out, organized and executed to have been you.

Hey Top,

easy on the old duffer...hes had lots of gigs, more so than the rest of us in a lifetime, and hes had to exude some competence in some of em to have had enough shekels to pay the rent........

but, as I recall, hes never been a janitor or a member of the Village People...........

there's still time......

[CaptainKirk]

Better to die on your feet fighting for your life than to be led to a gas chamber and go silently in the night.

you and I and Observer and others were trained to pull triggers, as were many others..so we understand that we wont cash in our chips cheaply...or at all so it mesmerizes us that in most societies there are millions who have a problem with swatting a mosquito off their arm if it bites em.......

that gene, whatever it is....needs to be buried on the ash heap of histoi....

you and I and Observer and others were trained to pull triggers, as were many others..so we understand that we wont cash in our chips cheaply...or at all so it mesmerizes us that in most societies there are millions who have a problem with swatting a mosquito off their arm if it bites em.......

that gene, whatever it is....needs to be buried on the ash heap of histoi....


I suppose that's true regarding the races that won't fight. I've never seen it, but of course I've only had experience with the far easterners. I guess it's kind of like the chinks, there's billions of 'em and they are controlled by a few...but them boys know how to fight when they're told...and their value of life is very low compared to ours.

Now, flash forward 50 years...we're in Israel...

The "survivors" (if you will) know how to fight, they know how to kill, so the question I have is...why in the fuck are we there to help them?

Oh, wait. Balance of power in the Middle East. ::)

But...the question is...if the Jews fought (and would most assuredly they would win the battle), would they then take over the oil....and if they did, what would be the cost of a barrel of oil from the Jews? Do you think prices would be lower? <scoff>

What is probably really happening is that we are protecting the camel jocks from the Jews.

That is a very interesting take on the ME Bad. It certainly made me go hmmmm. Kind of like, if the Jews weren't busy fighting the Palestinians what would they be up to instead? Living quiet, peaceful, rural lives?

That is a very interesting take on the ME Bad. It certainly made me go hmmmm. Kind of like, if the Jews weren't busy fighting the Palestinians what would they be up to instead? Living quiet, peaceful, rural lives?


Ya know, I think I just figured out why I hate it when people ask me "Why?" My little pea brain is going ninety to nothing always looking for another "out." I ain't saying what I'm thinking is even remotely true, but it does me good when others are able to say "hmmm" to my insanity. :)

The most apparent reasons for why things "are," aren't necessarily the first ones we think about...and sometimes we don't think about them at all.

[lgllady]

I imagine they would go on doing what they have been doing during the brief periods when their arab neighbors left them alone. They built a pretty good country, prosperous and peaceful.

They built a pretty good country, prosperous and peaceful.



At what and at whose expense?

I've never once heard a single Jew have any sympathy for anyone but themselves. I have, however, heard quite a few Indians show a great deal of sympathy toward the Jews, blacks, the Armenians, etc. I remember once when an Indian artist was asked to paint a Holocaust memorial mural, he was sued by the ADL because he not only included the Jews in his mural but several other groups of people. They were offended that he dared compare the genocide of others in what was to spotlight the obvious fact that the Jews are the only group of people to ever suffer in this world.


Your comment is even more shocking then the previous one I commented on. Surely you aren't an anti-semite...are you? By the way, we Jews sympathize with all people who are oppressed, persecuted, and discriminated against.

We have power now. We control the middle-east and most important we control the US government. We cannot be defeated for He is on our side.

Your comment is even more shocking then the previous one I commented on. Surely you aren't an anti-semite...are you? By the way, we Jews sympathize with all people who are oppressed, persecuted, and discriminated against.

We have power now. We control the middle-east and most important we control the US government. We cannot be defeated for He is on our side.


Good one Yukkie! You were almost convincing that time.

[antihipster]

Halocaust denial ,while being a rather absurd outlook, should not be a crime. Instead, "free speech" should be allowed to run its course to expose stupidity.

Angus