View Full Version : At What Age Should A Child Be Tried As An Adult?
sodaknomad
07-16-2003, 08:29 AM
There's a story in the local Pravda about a 13-year-old who is about to be tried as an adult for murder.
A 13-year-old Pensacola girl accused of cutting the throat of a childhood friend will be tried as an adult on second-degree murder charges, a grand jury decided Tuesday.
STORY (http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/news/071603/Local/ST001.shtml)
If they can't buy cigarettes, can't buy alcohol, can't drive, can't vote, they can't be tried as an adult...IMO.
sodaknomad
07-16-2003, 08:44 AM
If they can't buy cigarettes, can't buy alcohol, can't drive, can't vote, they can't be tried as an adult...IMO.
What's your state's law say concerning this topic?
You know about the 17-year-old sniper? He's looking at the hot shot.
What's your state's law say concerning this topic?
You know about the 17-year-old sniper? He's looking at the hot shot.
That's a good question. I don't know the state law on this one. If I'm not mistaken, these kids get tried like this when some D.A. or someone comes up with "special circumstances."
CALIFORNIA JUVENILE CRIME
Juveniles are defined as minors, under the age of 18. Juveniles are treated differently from adult offenders and while many juvenile offenses such as shoplifting, receiving stolen property, assault, etc., parallel adult offenses, the penalties could often be more severe. Other offenses such as breaking curfew and truancy are unique to juveniles and would not be illegal if the person was over the age of majority.
There are separate courts, institutions, and rules governing the juvenile process; and generally the juvenile court system will make every effort to rehabilitate the child rather than choose incarceration. Only in extreme cases such as murder, kidnapping, arson and rape will a juvenile be tried as an adult. The courts may hold a "fitness hearing" to decide whether or not to transfer the juvenile to the adult court system. The court will base its decision based on the following factors:
1. The seriousness of the offense
2. The child's criminal sophistication
3. Previous offenses
4. Previous attempts to rehabilitate the offender
5. The court's belief that future attempts at rehabilitation will be unsuccessful
Even though many of the laws governing juveniles differ from adult laws, the rights of juveniles are the same.
sodaknomad
07-16-2003, 09:12 AM
That's about the same way it is in most States. Here's South Dakota's law.
26-11-1. Proceedings on offense for which child not subject to delinquency proceedings -- Prosecution as adult -- Detention in adult jail or lockup. If any child under the age of eighteen years is arrested, with or without a warrant, for a violation of any law or municipal ordinance for which the child is not subject to proceedings as a child in need of supervision as defined in § 26-8B-2 or a delinquent child as defined in § 26-8C-2 or for a violation of subdivision 34-46-2 (2), the child shall be brought before the judge of a court having jurisdiction over the offense and proceedings shall be conducted as though the child were eighteen years of age or older.
A child under the age of eighteen years, subject to proceedings pursuant to this section and accused of a Class 2 misdemeanor, may be held in or sentenced to a detention or temporary care facility for up to seven days if sight and sound separated from adult prisoners. No child may be held in or sentenced to a detention facility for a violation of subdivision 34-46-2 (2).
A child under the age of eighteen years, subject to proceedings pursuant to this section and accused of a Class 1 misdemeanor, may be held in or sentenced to a detention or temporary care facility for up to thirty days if sight and sound separated from adult prisoners.
[Title 26 (http://legis.state.sd.us/statutes/index.cfm?FuseAction=DisplayStatute&FindType=Statu te&txtStatute=26-11-1).]
Here's the rest of Title 26-Chapter 11. (http://legis.state.sd.us/statutes/index.cfm?FuseAction=DisplayStatute&FindType=Statu te&txtStatute=26-11)
From reading the article, it certainly seemed as if she had "malice aforethought" when she said she was going to kill the girl. That topped with going off to get the knife, chasing the girl down and slitting her throat doesn't seem all that "juvenile" to me.
$50 says she was black. Any challengers?
ponygurl
07-16-2003, 09:56 AM
If the crime is pre meditated , any child should be tried as an adult. Due process of law should ..SHOULD.... determine whether the child should be sentenced as an adult.
in Canada, names of minors who do adult crimes.. such as murder and theivary cannot be released to the public, and our mickey mouse justice sytem lets serious criminals walk basically free.. How can that be benefical to society as a whole?
Tough one. I dunno, I'd say 13 was about right. I mean, I knew the diff between right and wrong at that age. And if a 13 year old kills ya, your just as dead as if a 50 year old did it. Shit, I'm glad this decision ain't up to me. It's a hard one.
Tiger
07-16-2003, 10:10 AM
That is a tough question. BN is right that it hardly seems fair a child who is not allowed adult rights, voting, drinking, etc, should be tried as one who is. We are either saying that they ARE capable of making their own decisions or they are NOT.
If we want to push TOTAL responsibility on them - then it should extend across the board to other areas.
But most of us who have been parents KNOW that a 13 year old is RARELY capable of making good decisions. She may well have pre-meditatied it - but at 13 are the consequences of her act REALLY understood by her? I doubt it. Kids drive at breakneck speeds because they think they are immortal - death hasn't sunk it.
They live by the motto - that no matter WHAT they do - they will be okay.
I say try her as a juvenile and I also agree with BN - she is likely black.
Tiger
07-16-2003, 10:33 AM
Although I have not found that the girl who wielded the knife was black - I strongly suspect she was. The victim WAS black and from this story she was in a number of scuffles before.
It sounds to me like the two were both entrenched in a 'gang mentality' of sorts.
But what bothers me even more than the actual killing (which IS tragic) is that from this account there were those who stood by and watched the one girl chase the other around the neighborhood with the knife and heard her say she was going to kill her. And yet - no one did Jack Shit.
In a neighborhood that lives by the sword - this sort of thing is only to be expected.
:(
http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/news/070803/Local/ST001.shtml
LanceALott
07-16-2003, 11:47 AM
Pony: If the crime is pre meditated , any child should be tried as an adult.
LaL: Suppose the crime is statutory rape?--If she pre meditates it with some guy, and gives her consent; then why in hell send the guy to jail?
If she's old enough to be tried as an adult, is she old enough to screw?
LanceALott
07-16-2003, 11:56 AM
Nine year old Nate was tried and convicted for 2nd degree murder as an adult. He also had a mental age of only six.
Does that mean he was also fair game to be buggared by some priest?
And when did the USA go nuts?
sodaknomad
07-16-2003, 02:30 PM
$50 says she was black. Any challengers?
You won't be emptying my wallet. Both the victim and the perp were/are black.
sodaknomad
07-16-2003, 02:34 PM
And when did the USA go nuts?
When they let you out of the nut house...
You won't be emptying my wallet. Both the victim and the perp were/are black.
Mighta knowed. Fukkin animals. (That oughta piss Jenny off)
Mighta knowed. Fukkin animals. (That oughta piss Jenny off)
::)
Sorry. JeNy, one N. But they ARE animals.
Sorry. JeNy, one N. But they ARE animals.
Some of them are, some are not. So are some white people, it won't "piss me off" if you're a big fat bigot. ;)
Seems like I did piss you off.
Seems like I did piss you off.
Nope, I just rolled my eyes at your stupid comment.
Open your eyes and look around. MOST of the prisoners are black, and it's because they commit most of the crimes. Go to the grocery store, MOST of the people who use food stamps are black. They want to take my heritage away by not alowing me to fly the Confederate flag all the while shoving there heritage down my throat. THEN, after they say they want to forget that there ancestors were slaves, they want reparations for slavery.
Open your eyes and look around. MOST of the prisoners are black, and it's because they commit most of the crimes. Go to the grocery store, MOST of the people who use food stamps are black. They want to take my heritage away by not alowing me to fly the Confederate flag all the while shoving there heritage down my throat. THEN, after they say they want to forget that there ancestors were slaves, they want reparations for slavery.
ok, I'm not denying statistics, but you don't do yourself any favors by considering the entire population of black people as "animals"
wendy
07-16-2003, 04:50 PM
ok, I'm not denying statistics, but you don't do yourself any favors by considering the entire population of black people as "animals"
Jeny, you'll never hear a hard core racist refer to blacks as PEOPLE...
Damn, I hope I did'nt piss you off too, Wendy. We go way back.
Jeny, you'll never hear a hard core racist refer to blacks as PEOPLE...
Kind of annoying, like the exact oposite of politically correct. Some people, rabid liberals and rabid conservatives alike, just cannot accept that the world is not black and white.
wendy
07-16-2003, 04:58 PM
Hoss, I'm not pissed off. I don't know why you feel the way you do about black people...and to be honest, I don't care. I know a lot of good and bad PEOPLE and I don't categorize them by race.
ok, I'm not denying statistics, but you don't do yourself any favors by considering the entire population of black people as "animals"
I don't. I know some very good black people. Hard working, just plain folk. As a matter of fact, I dated a black girl one time when I was a teen. But these gang banger type blacks, are animals. Look, I'm a hick. I admit it. I don't talk in the proper english. I am a high school drop out. But I did get my ged and go to collage after I was in my twentys. These people don't try to better themselves. They want a free ride from you and me. I'm crippled and I work EVERY DAY. I am a small buissness owner. I'm a building contractor. I never asked anybody for a damn thing. I just work now while on crutches. No welfare, no nothin but the bucks I earn. I never sold crack or held anybody up. All I'm sayin is they could do the same. And some of them do. These ain't animals, just plain folk.
wendy
07-16-2003, 05:02 PM
But these gang banger type blacks, are animals.
You are talking about a cultural problem, not a racial problem. You take any kid of any color and immerse them in a culture of violence and you're going to end up with a screwed up kid.
I don't. I know some very good black people. Hard working, just plain folk. As a matter of fact, I dated a black girl one time when I was a teen. But these gang banger type blacks, are animals. Look, I'm a hick. I admit it. I don't talk in the proper english. I am a high school drop out. But I did get my ged and go to collage after I was in my twentys. These people don't try to better themselves. They want a free ride from you and me. I'm crippled and I work EVERY DAY. I am a small buissness owner. I'm a building contractor. I never asked anybody for a damn thing. I just work now while on crutches. No welfare, no nothin but the bucks I earn. I never sold crack or held anybody up. All I'm sayin is they could do the same. And some of them do. These ain't animals, just plain folk.
Hoss, the same is true of a lot of people who are not black. Frankly, I do not give a damn about statistics, I only care about how individuals act. Labeling an entire group of people as "animals" even if you really don't mean it just makes you sound dumb, and I don't think you are so it's disapointing to hear you talk like that. <<shrug>>
Hoss, I'm not pissed off. I don't know why you feel the way you do about black people...and to be honest, I don't care. I know a lot of good and bad PEOPLE and I don't categorize them by race.
I know that darlin', but you got to see that the crime rate is elevated and it's blacks who are commiting the ceimes. The same with welfare, only down here it's mostly mescans, but them and blacks are the majority of the people on welfare. They don't even try to hide it, they think it's funny. I don't. New cars and food stamps. It makes me sick.
You are talking about a cultural problem, not a racial problem. You take any kid of any color and immerse them in a culture of violence and you're going to end up with a screwed up kid.
Thats true, but the majority of single moms are black, the majority of inner city gang violance is perpertrated by blacks, the majority of drug related violance is by blacks. So if if is truly a cluture problem, then it seems like the black culture IS the problem. How do you deal with that?? YOU GO TO WORK AND GET YOURSELF OUTTA THIS SITUATION. They would rather stay in this culture and bitch about white Americia keeping them down.
Anybody ever watch those programs on t.v. where the cops are chasing cars? What's the ratio of black to white of the perps? 90 %? Easy.
It's getting to the point the media won't even identify race any more in arrests, but you know what? WE know better even if we won't admit it.
I ain't afraid of offending anyone black or white. It's easier to upset a black, and do you know why? We aren't supposed to because it's socially unacceptable. ::)
And you think the solution to this problem is telling the entire black race that they are animals?
And you think the solution to this problem is telling the entire black race that they are animals?
Nope. I think the solution to the problem is admit to ourselves that a black is far more likely to commit a crime than a white person, to admit to ourselves that when we're walking alone in an underground parking facility in San Francisco and are approached by a black man that it probably isn't to ask you for some Gray Poupon, to admit to ourselves that the black population (as a whole) has no intention of raising themselves up by their bootstraps to better themselves as a race or as a culture. They are stuck in a time warp that no one is willing to do anything about...except bitch at the white man for keepin' tha niggah down.
truelies
07-16-2003, 05:42 PM
You are talking about a cultural problem, not a racial problem. You take any kid of any color and immerse them in a culture of violence and you're going to end up with a screwed up kid.
Brit Soccer Holigans.
Let me pull some stats outta my ass here...
The blacks are what? 7 % of the total population of this country? I'm not sure whether that's correct..just some number I seem to keep hearing around here in these debates....
And of that 7 % of the total population, what is the percentage of blacks in prison compared to Mr. Cracker? 70 %? Again, these are just numbers that I've snagged from some of these discussions, but whatever the figures are, NONE of us are willing to take a stand and admit it in the media or anywhere that has any merit that, indeed, the black man has a propensity to be a criminal FAR outweighing that of a white man...percentage-wise.
Does this make "them" animals as an "entity?" Are we really playing semantics here?
I ain't.
Persephone
07-16-2003, 06:20 PM
From the Dept. of Justice...
At yearend 2001 there were 3,535 sentenced black male prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,177 sentenced Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 462 white male inmates per 100,000 white males.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm
Yes, there is a greater percentage of black people in prison than white...but that exactly translate into most black people being criminals.
What's their percentage of the population? Per capita is bullshit.
Anyone can make a shitty picture look good with numbers.
Persephone
07-16-2003, 06:25 PM
What's their percentage of the population? Per capita is bullshit.
Anyone can make a shitty picture look good with numbers.
I think it's about 15%. I'll try to find a link.
Persephone
07-16-2003, 06:28 PM
12 %
http://www.indiana.edu/~shs/population.html
Persephone
07-16-2003, 06:32 PM
Blacks and Hispanics make up 62 percent of the incarcerated population, though comprising only 25 percent of the national population;
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/02/race0227.htm
Persephone
07-16-2003, 06:45 PM
This is interesting, though it is several years old.
A staggering 39% of California's African American men in their 20s were in prison, jails or on probation last year, according to a study released Monday.
http://www.pdxnorml.org/LAT_Racial_Fairness_021396.html
That's actually much higher than the national average. Maybe it's an urban thing...
Animals.
<case closed>
Example:
You're looking for an employee.
Three white men apply for the job, one black man applies for the job.
Who is MORE likely to commit a felony against the employer?
And because a negro is about to commit a felony against you because you aren't paying him as much as Welfare, we are supposed to be "sensitive" because of the last 200 years of enslavement of his forebearers?
Persephone
07-16-2003, 07:15 PM
Example:
You're looking for an employee.
Three white men apply for the job, one black man applies for the job.
Who is MORE likely to commit a felony against the employer?
And because a negro is about to commit a felony against you because you aren't paying him as much as Welfare, we are supposed to be "sensitive" because of the last 200 years of enslavement of his forebearers?
Maybe you should consider moving to a less populated area before you get jaded and resentful of others.
truelies
07-16-2003, 07:24 PM
Why do I have the feeling that BN is channeling the spirit of my dear departed friend nraforlife from NewsMax????????????? ;)
Maybe you should consider moving to a less populated area before you get jaded and resentful of others.
Hey, it's not like I'M commiting the armed robberies, the rapes, the crack dealing, ya know?
If I was black, I probably would, though.
Chances are.
Why do I have the feeling that BN is channeling the spirit of my dear departed friend nraforlife from NewsMax????????????? ;)
I just want you to know I'm not a racist. I'm just not afraid to call a spade a spade..in other words.
Persephone
07-16-2003, 07:28 PM
Hey, it's not like I'M commiting the armed robberies, the rapes, the crack dealing, ya know?
If I was black, I probably would, though.
Chances are.
If you were black, male, 25, and living in the inner city...that's a lot of ifs. And then there would still be the chance that wouldn't a criminal after all.
sodaknomad
07-17-2003, 08:35 AM
ok, I'm not denying statistics, but you don't do yourself any favors by considering the entire population of black people as "animals"
There are a few good black people, even the racists will agree. Here'sONE (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams.html)...
There are a few good black people, even the racists will agree. Here'sONE (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams.html)...
There are more than a "few"
sodaknomad
07-17-2003, 09:04 AM
Thats true, but the majority of single moms are black, the majority of inner city gang violance is perpertrated by blacks, the majority of drug related violance is by blacks. So if if is truly a cluture problem, then it seems like the black culture IS the problem. How do you deal with that?? YOU GO TO WORK AND GET YOURSELF OUTTA THIS SITUATION. They would rather stay in this culture and bitch about white Americia keeping them down.
You also stop chasing the skirts until you can afford to pay for what comes out of those skirts. >:( Also, when you knock up one of those skirts, you don't run away from the responsibilities.
sodaknomad
07-17-2003, 09:16 AM
If you were black, male, 25, and living in the inner city...that's a lot of ifs. And then there would still be the chance that wouldn't a criminal after all.
In that situation, there is a real chance I'd be dead before I got a chance to enter a criminal career.
In that situation, there is a real chance I'd be dead before I got a chance to enter a criminal career.
But at least you could dance.
sodaknomad
07-17-2003, 09:18 AM
But at least you could dance.
;D
Did I tell ya'll about my daughter's third birthday? We were having a great time...some little neighbor kids, hispanic, wanted to join the festivities so we invited them over to play, get some cokes, candy and some cake. They fit in pretty well until one kid started playing "Let's Rob McDonalds."
The party ended abruptly for them.
oh, well, ALL hispanics must rob mcdonalds then. Did I ever tell you about the time when I was in college and a co-worker of mine at the bank stole my credit card and charged over $1000 at the mall in less than an hour? Yeah, she was white. All white chicks that work at the bank are credit card thiefs.
oh, well, ALL hispanics must rob mcdonalds then. Did I ever tell you about the time when I was in college and a co-worker of mine at the bank stole my credit card and charged over $1000 at the mall in less than an hour? Yeah, she was white. All white chicks that work at the bank are credit card thiefs.
Now you're catching on.
How many white 4 year olds have you ever heard play "Let's Rob McDonalds?"
A lot? A few? Exactly none, right?
Now you're catching on.
How many white 4 year olds have you ever heard play "Let's Rob McDonalds?"
A lot? A few? Exactly none, right?
You can fear all the blacks and hispanics you want, but while you're keeping your eye on them, the white chick might steal your wallet. Constant vigilance is the only way to protect yourself.
You sig line badnews, revisited. "Consider the black folk, and while you do, the white chick is stealing your wallet"
You also stop chasing the skirts until you can afford to pay for what comes out of those skirts. >:( Also, when you knock up one of those skirts, you don't run away from the responsibilities.
Thats right, my friend. I was aftaid that when Wendya got after me you was gonna come down here and beat the compound hell outta me. I saw where you was Wendys protection. But remember, your taller than me, but I outweigh you. So there. :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D
sodaknomad
07-17-2003, 05:18 PM
There are more than a "few"
You might be right, but 92% of them "voted" for the "alpha" "male."
sodaknomad
07-17-2003, 05:22 PM
Thats right, my friend. I was aftaid that when Wendya got after me you was gonna come down here and beat the compound hell outta me. I saw where you was Wendys protection. But remember, your taller than me, but I outweigh you. So there. :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D
You sure do want that heart attack, my friend. ;D
Wendy can defend heself easily, you big pushover. ;)
Thunder Bay
07-18-2003, 12:52 AM
Uh huh....well anyway, I think deciding to murder someone is an adult decision deserving an adults consequences. On the other subject, I believe that the stats are probably correct and the listed reasons why are probably correct, to some extent. I will continue to assess people individually, though.
In the USA children and mentally retarded persons have been executed - Texas.
In the USA children and mentally retarded persons have been executed - Texas.
later
Larry_Oldtimer
07-30-2003, 09:35 AM
When I was a child, lo those many years ago, when children did something wrong, there was no "second chance". We got punished post haste. By that method, we learned that there were consequences to our actions. As a result, there were far fewer that did wrong things in the future whereby the question of "being tried as an adult'" would even come up. When we let children off the hook, time after time, they learn that there are in fact no consequences to their actions. As for the insane who commit murder, by all means the death penalty, as if they get loose, they will surely murder again. Society can't afford to have misfits like that around.
LanceALott
07-30-2003, 03:01 PM
Hey, I've got a capital idea.
Let's not try them as adults. Let's abort the unwanted bastards before they are born.
Or better yet, let's make birth control manditory.
In the USA children and mentally retarded persons have been executed - Texas.
Yeah? So whats your point?? I live in Texas and believe if you do the crime, you do the time. Even if that means the time you do is laying down on the stretcher waiting for the lethal drugs to be administered.
When I was a child, lo those many years ago, when children did something wrong, there was no "second chance". We got punished post haste. By that method, we learned that there were consequences to our actions. As a result, there were far fewer that did wrong things in the future whereby the question of "being tried as an adult'" would even come up. When we let children off the hook, time after time, they learn that there are in fact no consequences to their actions. As for the insane who commit murder, by all means the death penalty, as if they get loose, they will surely murder again. Society can't afford to have misfits like that around.
Larry, you make good, common sense here. Too bad so much of that has flown out the window in favor of giving children adult attributes, like worrying about their privacy, or better yet, their opinion. ::)
Sometimes I gave my kids a choice, "What color do you want your room painted; dove gray or light pink?". Them throwing a fit that they wanted it purple or some such nonsense didn't even enter into the equation.
Only weenies don't know how to put their foot down; yes, even in this day and age.
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