Wiccans Not Welcome

[Julia]

Skip the lawsuit and just turn Mr. Kelly E. Miller into a newt. ;)

What makes you think she is a witch?
Oh, she turned me into a newt.
A newt?
I got better.

Dispute Over Leading Prayer (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21279-2002Dec6.html)
Va. County Biased Against Wiccan, ACLU Suit Says
By Michael D. Shear
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, December 7, 2002; Page B01

RICHMOND, Dec. 6 -- In Chesterfield County, elected leaders bow their heads for a brief prayer to start every meeting of the Board of Supervisors.

Local ministers, priests and the occasional rabbi, each of whom has volunteered to be on a list, offer words of inspiration before the meeting shifts to zoning laws, budget cuts and public hearings. It's been that way for years.

But when Cynthia Simpson, a witch and local Wiccan priestess, volunteered, she received a firm "no." In a letter from the county's attorney, she was told that only members of "Judeo-Christian" religions can pray on the board's behalf.

..."I am being denied an opportunity here solely on the basis of my religion," Simpson said. "There's no other reason for it. In this case, a judgment is being made about what is a true religion and what is not. Government shouldn't be making that judgment."

In his letter to Simpson, County Attorney Steven L. Micas wrote that "Chesterfield's nonsectarian invocations are traditionally made to a divinity that is consistent with the Judeo-Christian tradition. Based upon our review of Wicca, it is neo-pagan and invokes polytheistic, pre-Christian deities."

Kelly E. Miller, chairman of the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors, vowed to fight the lawsuit. He said the county should continue to allow prayers only from Jews and Christians.

"That is basically a non-religion," Miller said of Wicca. "It doesn't recognize the God that we have recognized. My perspective is that we should continue to follow the Judeo-Christian perspective. In the name of diversity, we need not throw away our Christian heritage."

Miller said the policy is "the right course," even though it likely would bar Muslims and Hindus from offering the prayers as well.

[truelies]

If the local people as represented by their County government see no need for giving witches equal time, what is your problem?

[CatNtheHat]

Julia....It's their town and I guess they think they have to draw the line somewhere. You know people will make a god of anything. There's a cult in Japan that worships the Penis. Couldn't you just see one of these characters giving the opening benediction at city hall:

We thank thee lord Penis for your abundant blessings and ask that in thy mercy you give our leaders a stiff resolve, that they be not limp in their duties. etc, etc.....

I wonder what a Wiccan benediction would be like?

[Persephone]

It's a government function. They should have no religions respresented if they are unwilling to have all.

Where there is a Wiccan priestess, there are other Wiccans. These are people who live in and pay taxes in this county as well. They have the right to equal representation.

[CatNtheHat]

It's a government function. They should have no religions respresented if they are unwilling to have all.

Where there is a Wiccan priestess, there are other Wiccans. These are people who live in and pay taxes in this county as well. They have the right to equal representation.


Typical touchy-feely leftist response and coming from a female another good reason why most women shouldn't be allowed to vote or hold office.

[truelies]

It's a government function. They should have no religions respresented if they are unwilling to have all.

Where there is a Wiccan priestess, there are other Wiccans. These are people who live in and pay taxes in this county as well. They have the right to equal representation.


Based on their numbers perhaps one invocation in 20 years would be fair. Soooooooooo they get their turn in 2022. OK?

[Persephone]

Based on their numbers perhaps one invocation in 20 years would be fair. Soooooooooo they get their turn in 2022. OK?



Based on that equation, I'd say they are past due.

So they should get about a month all at once, then go into the rotation. ;)

[Persephone]

Typical touchy-feely leftist response and coming from a female another good reason why most women shouldn't be allowed to vote or hold office.


You're really hoping to get a spiked heel up your ass today, aren't you?

Keep trying. You're getting there.

[truelies]

Based on their numbers perhaps one invocation in 20 years would be fair. Soooooooooo they get their turn in 2022. OK?


Based on that equation, I'd say they are past due.

So they should get about a month all at once, then go into the rotation. ;)


Suth Suth Suth

I know women are bad at math & ruled by emotion but get a grip. A dozen witches (in a cult that did not even exist 20 years ago) in a County of 250,000 people ought to be happy to be promised a turn in 2022 by which time there may be 2 dozen witches.

[Persephone]

Suth Suth Suth

I know women are bad at math & ruled by emotion but get a grip. A dozen witches (in a cult that did not even exist 20 years ago) in a County of 250,000 people ought to be happy to be promised a turn in 2022 by which time there may be 2 dozen witches.




Could I get a link on those statistics?

[Satan]

Reckon they have "Christians Only" water fountains there?

[Persephone]

Reckon they have "Christians Only" water fountains there?



Hell, they are probably "Christian Men Only."

[Persephone]

Reckon they have "Christians Only" water fountains there?



Hell, they are probably "Christian Men Only."



But even then you can't use it if you are still just a baby Christian. First, they have to vote you in as a "grown-up" Christian.

Ask buzz. He knows all about baby Christians.

[Julia]

Wicca is a legally recognized religion in the state of Virginia covered under the First Amendment, so majority does not rule in this case.

The District Court of Virginia declared in 1985 (Dettmer v Landon, 617 F Suup 592 [E. Dst. Va.]) that Wicca is "clearly a religion for First Amendment purposes....Members of the Church sincerely adhere to a fairly complex set of doctrines relating to the spiritual aspect of their lives, and in doing so they have 'ultimate concerns' in much the same way as followers of more accepted religions. Their ceremonies and leadership structure, their rather elaborate set of articulated doctrine, their belief in the concept of another world, and their broad concern for improving the quality of life for others gives them at least some facial similarity to other more widely recognized religions." 1 This was a landmark case.
IS WICCA A RELIGION? What the U.S. courts say (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_rel.htm)


This is a blatant violation of the First Amendment. If they are going to have prayers, they can't discriminate against a minority religion.

Do you really think they should be spending their time and taxpayer funds to fight a lawsuit just to prevent a prayer?

What are they afraid of? It's one citizen offering a short prayer. Do they think she'll cast some evil spell on them? Maybe cast a spell and make them all give up their own faiths and become Wiccan.

I think the gal has a lawsuit and I hope she pursues it.

That said, there should be no religious intonment at any government function.

Give them one of those nice moments of silence. The one's where everyone is uncomfortable because either their tummy growl really loud - or they fart.

Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar, what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's"

Keep god OUT of Caesar's domain - government. It really can't be any clearer.

[Meshuga Mikey]

Perhaps in the name of DIVERSITY the ACLU will insist on the InCLUSion of the MUSLIME enemy~!!??

Oh course one of the tenets of the so called religion is the CONQUERING of all non MUSLIMES so that may pose a slight problem in these United States of America~!!

KISS MY ACLU~!!!

[Slipped Mickey]

The following is written on a wall in Richmond's Shockoe Slip (just 10 miles from Chesterfield). Shockoe Slip was established in the 1600s though most of it was burned in 1865. The words on the wall are from Thomas Jefferson in the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom.

"WE the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

It doesn't say Christian religion but rather refers to "all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion". It does not say "some men" nor does it name a specific religion. It doesn't say that a religion shall be recognized to the exclusion of others.

All doubt and argument is removed however in "no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship". If tax dollars are used to pay for the buildings and the salaries of those conducting the business of the people of Chesterfield then quite clearly public money is in violation of this landmark statute.

Ironic isn't? Just 10 miles away written on a wall in the state capital of Richmond the words of Thomas Jefferson and either the officials of Chesterfield County are not aware or they just want to ram that Christain message right up the public's collective arse. Either way it's wrong AND illegal.


http://www.richmondcitywatch.com/Pictures/ddslip.JPG

If the county feels as strongly as it does then why does it accept tax money from Wiccans? The county has no problem whatsoever collecting revenue from all property owners. It would be fair to say the county has no problem collecting and spending non Christian money.

[wendy]

What? yet another case of Christians in government using their unique power to promote their own religion and exclude all others in the public arena? Say it ain't so. ::)

[Slipped Mickey]

It's so, it's so.

[truelies]

[quote author=Julia

This is a blatant violation of the First Amendment. If they are going to have prayers, they can't discriminate against a minority religion.


[/quote]

No its not a violation of the Constitution. Said Constitution protects all Christian Sects from any particular one being dominate as The Church of the USA.

Pagan/non-Christian religions enjoy no Constitutional right of free exercise. Any freedom they enjoy is purely at the let of the State Government in question. Even among the Christian Sects it would be perfectly acceptable (Constitutionally) for the Methodists to become the official State Church in Kansas for instance.

[Ed Edwards]

Let me read the whole thread later :'(

Personally, i let Wiccians pray for me.
Some days i need all the free
outside help i can get :)

[wendy]

[quote author=Julia

This is a blatant violation of the First Amendment. If they are going to have prayers, they can't discriminate against a minority religion.




No its not a violation of the Constitution. Said Constitution protects all Christian Sects from any particular one being dominate as The Church of the USA.

Pagan/non-Christian religions enjoy no Constitutional right of free exercise. Any freedom they enjoy is purely at the let of the State Government in question. Even among the Christian Sects it would be perfectly acceptable (Constitutionally) for the Methodists to become the official State Church in Kansas for instance.
[/quote]

Prior to the 14th amendment, you mean.

[NC3]

Let me read the whole thread later :'(

Personally, i let Wiccians pray for me.
Some days i need all the free
outside help i can get :)




Ed...you're an idiot.

[Satan]

NC3... you're a prick. >:(

[wendy]

Please....it would be an IMPROVEMENT if he were a prick. ::)

[CatNtheHat]

Let me read the whole thread later :'(

Personally, i let Wiccians pray for me.
Some days i need all the free
outside help i can get :)




Ed...you're an idiot.


Ed...don't agree with Nc3 on this one but must confess some confusion about you thinking you need a neo pagan praying for you. I know you don't mean it but all you're doing is giving her credibility. Wiccans have absolutely no credibility. They might be nice but so is my doggy.

[Persephone]

Ed...you're an idiot.



Just a little btw...Ed is an innocent bystander. He was already here when we got here. He has nothing to do with the current pissing contest, so aim somewhere else.

[wendy]

Ed...don't agree with Nc3 on this one but must confess some confusion about you thinking you need a neo pagan praying for you. I know you don't mean it but all you're doing is giving her credibility. Wiccans have absolutely no credibility. They might be nice but so is my doggy.


cred·i·bil·i·ty:

The quality, capability, or power to elicit belief:

Apparently they DO have credibility or there would be no wiccans. I'm sure you really meant that they have no credibility for you personally.

Not that they care....

[wendy]

I suppose my last post qualifies me as a "Christian hater". ::)

Y'all need to buy a dictionary.

[NC3]

Ed...don't agree with Nc3 on this one but must confess some confusion about you thinking you need a neo pagan praying for you. I know you don't mean it but all you're doing is giving her credibility. Wiccans have absolutely no credibility. They might be nice but so is my doggy.


cred·i·bil·i·ty:

The quality, capability, or power to elicit belief:

Apparently they DO have credibility or there would be no wiccans. I'm sure you really meant that they have no credibility for you personally.

Not that they care....


Wendy...I was all set to believe you had some smarts.....first rule of self preservation....don't agree with stupid friends just because they are friends....hey...I know some folks who've got some majik crystals they'll sell you cheap....just in case you are that stupid.

[buzaw]

It's a government function. They should have no religions respresented if they are unwilling to have all.

Where there is a Wiccan priestess, there are other Wiccans. These are people who live in and pay taxes in this county as well. They have the right to equal representation.


They have equal access in the elections. After the election, the elected make the rules. If the majority dissagree, they can muster up a majority vote at the next election to change the leadership. That's how a majority rule republic functions. Otherwise elections are a farse.

[truelies]

[quote author=wendya

Prior to the 14th amendment, you mean.

[/quote]

Nor after the 14th Amendment. Read the words of those who wrote the 14th. Not a WORD about equal status for 'alternative' religions.

[Persephone]

Wendy...I was all set to believe you had some smarts.....first rule of self preservation....don't agree with stupid friends just because they are friends....hey...I know some folks who've got some majik crystals they'll sell you cheap....just in case you are that stupid.



Sir, I do believe we will make most excellent strangers.

You're a crock of shit.

[wendy]

Wendy...I was all set to believe you had some smarts.....


Really? I never made the same assumption about you.

first rule of self preservation....don't agree with stupid friends just because they are friends....

I don't agree with any position on this forum out of "friendship".

hey...I know some folks who've got some majik crystals they'll sell you cheap

And I know some folks who claim they can cure cancer with the power of prayer.

....just in case you are that stupid.

Just in case YOU are that stupid. :)

[wendy]

Nor after the 14th Amendment. Read the words of those who wrote the 14th. Not a WORD about equal status for 'alternative' religions.


Nowhere in the Constitution does it say which religions are true/false. It's not a governement fuction to sanction religious belief. You're not going to like this...but in the eyes of the law, all religions are equal.

[buzaw]

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say which religions are true/false. It's not a governement fuction to sanction religious belief. You're not going to like this...but in the eyes of the law, all religions are equal.


But the elected by majority, as in other choices, choose as to who goes to the podium to speak.

[wendy]

But the elected by majority, as in other choices, choose as to who goes to the podium to speak.


No, those elected act on behalf of their constitutents WITHIN the framework of the constitution.

That is why we are known as a nation of LAW instead of a country of majority rule.

[truelies]

[quote author=wendya

It's not a governement fuction to sanction religious belief.

[/quote]

The wiccans are free to practice their religion, just not at the County Board meeting room. Literally what the wiccans are asking for is an affirmation which violates the right of the people on the County Board to choose with whom they will associate.

[wendy]

The wiccans are free to practice their religion, just not at the County Board meeting room. Literally what the wiccans are asking for is an affirmation which violates the right of the people on the County Board to choose with whom they will associate.


Tell me, did the county board invite religious groups to give a pre-meeting prayer, or did they specify that only Christian or Jewish prayer would be allowed? I'm guessing they had no written "law" specifying what type of prayer was acceptable at a GOVERNMENT function because it would never withstand a court challenge.

I have no problem with them as Christians standing on principle..but they have to realize that they are acting on the behalf of ALL the citizens, not just the christian-jewish citizens. It would not have hurt them one bit to let her say her prayer and go on her way. They are not guaranteed the right not to be offended by other religions. Nor do they have the right to use governemnt power to sanction ANY particular religion and exclude all others.

[Meshuga Mikey]

The wiccans are free to practice their religion, just not at the County Board meeting room. Literally what the wiccans are asking for is an affirmation which violates the right of the people on the County Board to choose with whom they will associate.


Tell me, did the county board invite religious groups to give a pre-meeting prayer, or did they specify that only Christian or Jewish prayer would be allowed? I'm guessing they had no written "law" specifying what type of prayer was acceptable at a GOVERNMENT function because it would never withstand a court challenge.

I have no problem with them as Christians standing on principle..but they have to realize that they are acting on the behalf of ALL the citizens, not just the christian-jewish citizens. It would not have hurt them one bit to let her say her prayer and go on her way. They are not guaranteed the right not to be offended by other religions. Nor do they have the right to use governemnt power to sanction ANY particular religion and exclude all others.




WHY would anyone WANT to BE anywhere where they did not feel WELCOME??

WHY WONT LOUIS FARRAKHAN LET ME ADDRESS THE NATION OF ISLAM?

[wendy]

WHY would anyone WANT to BE anywhere where they did not feel WELCOME??

I don't know...why are you still here? ::)

WHY WONT LOUIS FARRAKHAN LET ME ADDRESS THE NATION OF ISLAM?

Your comparison is not valid.

[Ed Edwards]

NC3: "Ed...you're an idiot."

Hello! Nice to meet you.

CatNtheHat: "Ed...don't agree with Nc3 on this
one but must confess some confusion about
you thinking you need a neo pagan praying for you."

I question the word "need".
I think it is more like "allow".

Suth: "Just a little btw...Ed is an innocent
bystander. He was already here when we got
here. He has nothing to do with the current
pissing contest, so aim somewhere else."

Thank you for your defense.
Whilst i may be a bystander, i'm not
THAT innocent :) BTW, i drink
water from a fire hose :)

I question the word "need".
I think it is more like "allow".



Ed this just proves that you are a gentleman, unlike others who have said anything about this issue.

[Persephone]

Ed, if you feel my defense was not needed but still appreciated, by all means do not miss Sky's.


http://nopc.antares-dev.com/yabbse/index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=353


8)

[Slipped Mickey]

Nowhere in the Constitution does it say which religions are true/false. It's not a governement fuction to sanction religious belief. You're not going to like this...but in the eyes of the law, all religions are equal.


But the elected by majority, as in other choices, choose as to who goes to the podium to speak.


And if an elected official always began his public speeches by addressing everyone as motherfuckers you'd support that Buzz? ::) Hey he got elected so it's OK!!

You don't get it do you? IF the elected officials are using tax money to favor one religious belief over all others it is misuse of public funds. Government is not to be used as a religious bully pulpit. WHY is it important for you for that to happen?

[Slipped Mickey]

I don't know who NC-3 is but I already do not care for him or her.

Prayer is prayer and there is proof it works. I am not aware of only a certain faith having more prayer power than others. Prayer is care. It's hard for me to believe but I imagine there are some people in this world who only want certain types of people to care about them.

[Ed Edwards]

Slipped Mickey: "Prayer is care. It's hard
for me to believe but I imagine there
are some people in this world who only
want certain types of people to care about them."

Wow! exactly right! I once had a person
say they would work me up some good juju.
Well, i don't believe in juju, let alone
"good juju", but why knock that someone
cares a bit?

Suth: "Ed, if you feel my defense was not
needed but still appreciated, by all means
do not miss Sky's."
http://nopc.antares-dev.com/yabbse/index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=353

Thank you for pointing that out to me.
I never go to the NoPC basement :)
But that was worth the trip :)

LizzieEleanor: "Ed this just proves that you are a gentleman ... "

Thank you.

[Lance]

Mick & Ed: I agree completely. Even though I don't believe, I sure as heck don't knock any christian or anyone else on the head that CARES ENOUGH to pray for me. It is simply how some people show that they care.

NoPC basement. That's a good one Ed! ;D

[Julia]

Julia:
This is a blatant violation of the First Amendment. If they are going to have prayers, they can't discriminate against a minority religion.
truelies:
No its not a violation of the Constitution. Said Constitution protects all Christian Sects from any particular one being dominate as The Church of the USA.

Pagan/non-Christian religions enjoy no Constitutional right of free exercise.

??? Are you saying that it would not be unconstitutional to make a law prohibiting the exercise of non-Christian beliefs?

truelies:
Any freedom they enjoy is purely at the let of the State Government in question. Even among the Christian Sects it would be perfectly acceptable (Constitutionally) for the Methodists to become the official State Church in Kansas for instance.


I understand that some people interpret the Establishment clause that way, but the courts have interpreted it differently.

Case law, supported by Appellate and Supreme Court interpretations of the 1st Amendment, not only prohibits the government from establishing any official religion, but also prevents any government body from promoting one particular religion over another.

Regardless, the state of Virginia does legally recognize Wicca as a religion granted First Amendment protections. Therefore, if a government body in Virginia is going to accept Christian prayers, they are required to also accept Wiccan prayers.

But do you really think that the Board of Supervisors should spend their time and taxpayer funds just to prevent a prayer?

Who/what/why would it harm any Christians at that meeting to hear a non-Judeo/Christian prayer?

I accept, appreciate, and respect any prayers anyone of any belief wishes to offer. Any time, concern, and/or positive thoughts are welcome. And I would never disprespect someone simply because we have different beliefs.

I really do not understand why it is more harmful to let one woman say a 60 second non-Christian prayer, then to spend the time and money on a lawsuit.

[buzaw]

And if an elected official always began his public speeches by addressing everyone as motherfuckers you'd support that Buzz? ::) Hey he got elected so it's OK!!

I could complain to his superior if he has one or I could write letters to the editor and work to discredit the person. If he was breaking a law I could file a complaint. But I would certainly not try to cite the Constitution as to his being unconstitutional. Likely he'd survive the next election and some may even work up a campaign to get him impeached.


You don't get it do you? IF the elected officials are using tax money to favor one religious belief over all others it is misuse of public funds. Government is not to be used as a religious bully pulpit. WHY is it important for you for that to happen?


I get it from the founders. You Christophobics continually refuse to address and to recognize the fact that the founders were so Bible orientated that they used the Bible and Watt's Hymnal in the public schools, held Christian services in the Congress and used the Marine Band for the music. They exercised religion in the government which is not prohibited by the Constitution or the Bill of Rigbts.

Now however, the sentiment of the electorate has changed from that and it wouldn't be acceptable. This change all came about at the ballot box, not by the courts. Now why don't you people get over your paranoia about this and get off you behinds n go to work for your kinda people to get in there and do it your way rather than whine, whine , whine about all this "damage" the Ten Commandments is doing around city hall and the school house.

[wendy]

Buzz, I'm not clear on why you would use the force of government to "sanction" your religion. Do you believe that in any given country, the religion with the most followers is by dint, the one TRUE faith? Is it a numbers game to you? Does government backing give your religion more credibility?

The first amendment was written BECAUSE of the interference of various Christian sects IN government. Once a particular sect gained the majority, they would use the force of government to advance their particular sect and marginalize all others. When it comes to a country with a large number of religious minorities, the dominant religion uses the government to promote THEIR belief system and marginalize (or worse) others.

That's our history Buzz and Christianity is no less guilty of it than any other religion.

[Ed Edwards]

Lance: "NoPC basement. That's a good one Ed! :D "

More like that little basement thingie
they used to have on an outhouse ;)

Lance: "Even though I don't believe, I sure
as heck don't knock any christian or anyone
else on the head that CARES ENOUGH
to pray for me. It is simply how some
people show that they care. "

Remember in the last half of '99 when
everybody on your board was either praying
for me or at least wished me well?
I don't forget you'all cared.

Meanwhile, on the topic at hand:
I can't see suing everytime ones turns around.
But OTOH sometimes that is what it takes.
It isn't nice to say ugly things to Wiccans
either.

[Slipped Mickey]

And if an elected official always began his public speeches by addressing everyone as motherfuckers you'd support that Buzz? ::) Hey he got elected so it's OK!!

I could complain to his superior if he has one or I could write letters to the editor and work to discredit the person. If he was breaking a law I could file a complaint. But I would certainly not try to cite the Constitution as to his being unconstitutional. Likely he'd survive the next election and some may even work up a campaign to get him impeached.


You don't get it do you? IF the elected officials are using tax money to favor one religious belief over all others it is misuse of public funds. Government is not to be used as a religious bully pulpit. WHY is it important for you for that to happen?


I get it from the founders. You Christophobics continually refuse to address and to recognize the fact that the founders were so Bible orientated that they used the Bible and Watt's Hymnal in the public schools, held Christian services in the Congress and used the Marine Band for the music. They exercised religion in the government which is not prohibited by the Constitution or the Bill of Rigbts.

Now however, the sentiment of the electorate has changed from that and it wouldn't be acceptable. This change all came about at the ballot box, not by the courts. Now why don't you people get over your paranoia about this and get off you behinds n go to work for your kinda people to get in there and do it your way rather than whine, whine , whine about all this "damage" the Ten Commandments is doing around city hall and the school house.


In other words you are saying let the best man win? If you get the most votes your religion receives preference? IS THERE A QUICKER WAY TO ESTABLISHING A THEOCRACY? My religion - and others - don't believe that any religion should have the power to decide for other religions or people with no religion. We believe you should be free to practice your beliefs as you wish as long as your beliefs do not infringe on the rights of others. You belief differently? Wow! You would have government become a religious battlefield with each religion vying to grab the power, the right to control. Those who have the power set the religious rules. Smells like theocracy to me.

When I raised my right hand - as many here have done - to protect OUR country - not YOUR country - against all enemies foreign and domestic I did so with the knowledge that my religious beliefs had no better and no less than an equal place in the eyes of the law in America. You are telling me that in truth I was in error? You are telling me that actually since this nation was established all those who practice and believe other than a Christian faith have done so through, and only through, the good graces of Christianity? You are telling me that my rights are LESS THAN yours because of my religious beliefs? Anyone who defends this nation, anyone who volunteers for the military who is NOT a Christian is your religious nigger? I should expect to be the Christian's "hey boy" and damn greatful you have seen fit to be so kind to me? It is or it isn't Massa Buzz. You tell me which it is.

God forbid ANY religion take over this government. :(

[Slipped Mickey]

God forbid ANY religion take over this government. :(


Mine, yours or anyone else's. Buzz would have it differently but that's the last thing this country needs.

[the bib]

Mick & Ed: I agree completely. Even though I don't believe, I sure as heck don't knock any christian or anyone else on the head that CARES ENOUGH to pray for me. It is simply how some people show that they care.

NoPC basement. That's a good one Ed! ;D


Agreed. We are all children of God ... and He hears us all. Did I tell you, He's not only omnipotent, omnipresent and omicsient, He's also multi-lingual? ;D

[buzaw]

In other words you are saying let the best man win?

No, but may the most men (ladies too ;D)win.


If you get the most votes your religion receives preference?

No. If you get the most votes, your elected officials govern and choose the judges, etc to decide on the issues. Otherwise voting is a waste of time. Why do you think the Bible was used in the schools of our founders? Why is it not used now? The buck stops with who was elected by the majority to make these decisions, doesn't it?

Why are the Muslims allowed time out on ship to pray and Christians are not? Isn't it because the Secretary of Defense appointed by the elected President decided that was ok? Didn't the President get the authority to appoint the Secretary by the representatives of the voters who's majority elected them?

[Slipped Mickey]

In other words you are saying let the best man win?

No, but may the most men (ladies too ;D)win.


If you get the most votes your religion receives preference?

No. If you get the most votes, your elected officials govern and choose the judges, etc to decide on the issues. Otherwise voting is a waste of time. Why do you think the Bible was used in the schools of our founders? Why is it not used now? The buck stops with who was elected by the majority to make these decisions, doesn't it?

Why are the Muslims allowed time out on ship to pray and Christians are not? Isn't it because the Secretary of Defense appointed by the elected President decided that was ok? Didn't the President get the authority to appoint the Secretary by the representatives of the voters who's majority elected them?







Religious equality or not? You have avoided the question. Do you agree with religious equality in America across the board or not? As permitted or denied for one so shall it be for all, always - yes or no. Religious equality in the America or not?

Agreed. We are all children of God ... and He hears us all. Did I tell you, He's not only omnipotent, omnipresent and omicsient, He's also multi-lingual? ;D


Hey, does that mean He listens to Protestants too? ;)

[the bib]

Agreed. We are all children of God ... and He hears us all. Did I tell you, He's not only omnipotent, omnipresent and omicsient, He's also multi-lingual? ;D


Hey, does that mean He listens to Protestants too? ;)


I don't think he "listens" to anyone. I just think he hears us all. ;)

[buzaw]

I don't think he "listens" to anyone. I just think he hears us all. ;)


To listen implies a response whereas to hear does not necessarily imply a response, the former being the more active and the latter, the more passive.

Someplace it says that God looks throughout the earth to show himself strong for those who's hearts are "perfect towards him." Not that they are perfect, but those who's attitude toward him is right. To those, imo, he listens. He hears the rest. (II Chronicles 16:9)

[greginboise]

It seems to me that the religious types are there at the invitatation of the commissioners, who are under NO obligation to invite someone they don't want.