Measure of Evil

[Ed Edwards]

The most common number of Jews killed 1943-45by Nazi Germany is 6,000,000. Some people don'tbelieve the Holocost happened. How many Jewswould the Nazis have had to have killed to beconstrued as evil?

Thanks for the poll Ed. I voted for 10 = but it only takes one person to be unfairly killed to make me believe the perpetrator is something akin to evil.

I am not denying the Holocaust - I am questioning the sensationalist stories that came out of it in the feeding frenzy that was the Nuremberg Trials that later were disproven.

The number of Jewish dead has been revised downward by at least 2.5 million - and may be even lower. Telling the truth is not denying the evil that happened.

But placing the Jewish dead in a realm of importance over the other dead in that war is silly. Millions more dies in the USSR under communism, which, by the way was driven by Jewish ideals.

I just think that for the world to focus on one tiny aspect to the exclusion of the greater events is moronic.

And one more thing, Ed. It is not so much about denying anything as it is to stop exploiting it.

Even the UN told Israel to 'knock it off'. So why do most Americans still not realize it?

By Mark Klusener
CNSNews.com Correspondent
August 31, 2001
Durban, South Africa (CNSNews.com) -- U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan called on Israel Friday to stop using the Holocaust as a reason to continue what he said were policies of occupation, displacement, and extra-judicial killings of Palestinians.

[tileman]

I don't think I've ever heard them use the halocaust as justification. Why should they? They're perfectly justified by the slimey actions of the pieces of shit that have been killing their kids and whoever else they could for so many years.
Telling them to get their asses out or die sounds reasonable to me. 8)

I don't think I've ever heard them use the halocaust as justification. Why should they? They're perfectly justified by the slimey actions of the pieces of shit that have been killing their kids and whoever else they could for so many years.
Telling them to get their asses out or die sounds reasonable to me. 8)


but, tileman, do you realise that three times as many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli's as Israeli's killed by Palestinians?

I do not advocat the killing on ANYONE but I think the facts should be known.

[truelies]

[quote author=CherryBomb


But placing the Jewish dead in a realm of importance over the other dead in that war is silly. Millions more dies in the USSR under communism, which, by the way was driven by Jewish ideals.


[/quote]

When I posted something very similar to this at NM there were loud cries that I be taken out and shot (until wendya restored sanity by suggesting hanging as a rope would be reuseable).

Where is the justice & equity here?

[CatNtheHat]

Thanks for the poll Ed. I voted for 10 = but it only takes one person to be unfairly killed to make me believe the perpetrator is something akin to evil.

I am not denying the Holocaust - I am questioning the sensationalist stories that came out of it in the feeding frenzy that was the Nuremberg Trials that later were disproven.

The number of Jewish dead has been revised downward by at least 2.5 million - and may be even lower. Telling the truth is not denying the evil that happened.

But placing the Jewish dead in a realm of importance over the other dead in that war is silly. Millions more dies in the USSR under communism, which, by the way was driven by Jewish ideals.

I just think that for the world to focus on one tiny aspect to the exclusion of the greater events is moronic.




Communism driven by Jewish ideals? I suppose you've got a neo-nazi website study to back that up. Hey....be sure to see my post on what women want. I've got you covered and you can thank me later.

[quote author=CatNtheHat

Communism driven by Jewish ideals? I suppose you've got a neo-nazi website study to back that up. Hey....be sure to see my post on what women want. I've got you covered and you can thank me later.
[/quote]




I am sure that many neo-nazi sites provide slanted information - but that does not interest me. History is enough to show the link without coloring it.

First, Marx was a Jew. Was he a practicing Jew? No, he was an atheist - but he was still a Jew, born of Jewish lineage.

In the interests of historical accuracy one must acknowledge that Jews, like Latvians, played a major role in the early years of Bolshevism's "Great Experiment," that is, between 1917 and 1937. This is indicated graphically in the memoirs, published abroad, of the well-known Russian poet Marina Zvetayeva, who remembers how amazed she was that in 1918 in Moscow, everywhere, in every institution, there were "only Yids and Latvians." All Moscow, she complained, was swarming with them.

and ,
the role of Jewish revolutionaries among the Bolsheviks during the civil war and the twenties was very large. One has only to name a few names to make that clear: Lev Trotsky; Grigori Zinoviev, first president of the Communist International; Yagoda, head of the secret police; Kamenev, Radek, Sverdlov, Joffe, Yakir. Thousands of young Jews joined the Bolsheviks after they became convinced that White Russian forces, Cossacks, Ukrainian insurgents, and other armed opponents of Bolshevism were organizing pogroms in the finest tradition of Orthodox Mother Russia's anti-Semitism.

and,\Among the prominent Jewish Bolsheviks were commissars and Chekists who were members of Baltic Jewish families. For example, the Riga Jew M. Gruzenberg-Borodin in the twenties was the Kremlin's emissary to China and worked as chief adviser to the Kuomintang nationalist government. Also, the Latvian Jew Jacob Rappoport was one of the founders of the Gulag. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (The Gulag Archipelago, New York, Harper & Row, 1975, v.2, p. 83) mentions that Rappoport, while a student at Tartu (Dorpat, or Jurjev), was evacuated to Voronezh, where he later become deputy head of the provincial Cheka and then deputy head of construction of the White Sea-Baltic Canal, built with slave labor.

http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/fg_coup.htm

You sorely underestimate me if you think I have to resort to surfing neo-nazi sites. I don't stoop that low.

When I posted something very similar to this at NM there were loud cries that I be taken out and shot (until wendya restored sanity by suggesting hanging as a rope would be reuseable).

Where is the justice & equity here?



I think it may be because I'm cuter! ;D

And I'm a girl. It's a sexist thing - but one I'll take advantage of if I get the chance.

[truelies]

When I posted something very similar to this at NM there were loud cries that I be taken out and shot (until wendya restored sanity by suggesting hanging as a rope would be reuseable).

Where is the justice & equity here?



I think it may be because I'm cuter! ;D

And I'm a girl. It's a sexist thing - but one I'll take advantage of if I get the chance.



You mean you don't want to (to paraphrase MLK) be judged on the content of your Character as opposed to the content of your bra cup????????

I would have voted for 1 if that had been an option.

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry Lizzy, i only had eight choices.
If i'd had nine, i'd chose "1" myself.

Sorry Lizzy, i only had eight choices.
If i'd had nine, i'd chose "1" myself.


I figured that's what happened.

[the bib]

I don't think I've ever heard them use the halocaust as justification. Why should they? They're perfectly justified by the slimey actions of the pieces of shit that have been killing their kids and whoever else they could for so many years.
Telling them to get their asses out or die sounds reasonable to me. 8)


but, tileman, do you realise that three times as many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli's as Israeli's killed by Palestinians?

I do not advocat the killing on ANYONE but I think the facts should be known.


I am aware of the numbers. I am curious though, how many of the dead and what percentage thereof on each side, include combatants .... including suicide bombers?

It would be useful to know how many and what percentage of casualties on both sides were innocent victims ... that is, going about their daily lives and how many were engaged in belligerent endeavors?

Do you have any idea as to the breakdown? I for one believe the information has relevance if we are going to interpret the raw numbers with any accuracy.

To answer the topic question, killing one innocent is evil.

So there won't be any confusion, I'm the idiot that picked 1 million. It seemed like the right answer at the time.

[Ed Edwards]

Badnews: "So there won't be any confusion,
I'm the idiot that picked 1 million.
It seemed like the right answer at the time. "

Ah, what seemed best at 09:14:38AM on 10 Dec 2002.
I wonder if by 9:15 the answer might have been
different?

BTW, can somebody confirm the existance
of Chicago? I was there once and so was
Chicago. But that doesn't verify now
that Chicago still exists.
Oh, yes, i'm sceptical so i need at
least three witnesses :)

Since we are on the subject of the Holocaust I have a question. Was the persecution of the Jews driven by
a) Racism
b) Religion
c) Economics?

It is my belief that the former two played very minor roles in it and the latter was the key to it all. Once Hitler declared all of the Jews enemies of the state and rounded them up he could confiscate their wealth without any resistance from family. It stands to reason that the Jews were among the wealthier of the German population just as they tend to be among any population. Hitler may have been pure evil but the man was a genius. He needed to fund the largest war machine the world had yet seen as well as amass his own fortune. The scapegoat effect was merely a nice byproduct.

[buzaw]

If it ain't Oooooooooooh.. 8)...Aaaaaaaaaaay.... 8)...Geeeeeeeee!! 8) Kuuuuuuuuuuul!! I've been thinkin it'd be nice if you'd show up. Buzzboy here as buzsaw, n havin a ball here. Welcome to town!!

Any idea where PTT or arod are?

If it ain't Oooooooooooh.. 8)...Aaaaaaaaaaay.... 8)...Geeeeeeeee!! 8) Kuuuuuuuuuuul!! I've been thinkin it'd be nice if you'd show up. Buzzboy here as buzsaw, n havin a ball here. Welcome to town!!

Any idea where PTT or arod are?


I couldn't care less where Nimrod is. Someone alluded to his opting to go elsewhere. I pity the people that are currently putting up with that asshole wherever he is.

I wouldn't know how to get in touch with PTT to invite him here. He has always been a pleasant presence and it would be nice to hear from him again.

[buzaw]

If it ain't Oooooooooooh.. 8)...Aaaaaaaaaaay.... 8)...Geeeeeeeee!! 8) Kuuuuuuuuuuul!! I've been thinkin it'd be nice if you'd show up. Buzzboy here as buzsaw, n havin a ball here. Welcome to town!!

Any idea where PTT or arod are?


I couldn't care less where Nimrod is. Someone alluded to his opting to go elsewhere. I pity the people that are currently putting up with that asshole wherever he is.

I wouldn't know how to get in touch with PTT to invite him here. He has always been a pleasant presence and it would be nice to hear from him again.


I often disagreed with arod, but, imo, he was ftmp, very sensible, impartial and intelligent. If I were ever to be judged by a motal, I'd feel confident with arod.

Imo, when you're as impartial to all as he was, you will have few friends as you likely will at some point admonish all.

I often disagreed with arod, but, imo, he was ftmp, very sensible, impartial and intelligent. If I were ever to be judged by a motal, I'd feel confident with arod.

Imo, when you're as impartial to all as he was, you will have few friends as you likely will at some point admonish all.


My experience with that prick was far less one of impartiality. He showed a distinct partiality toward people who caused harm to children in the service of their allegedly greater cause. When he couldn't adequately defend his position he became a little bitch. As for his admonishments of me or anyone else just who the heck is HE to admonish anyone for anything? You can only do that if you remain above reproach yourself. Once you have demonstrated that your only concern is for yourself you have conceded that position and become just another insensitive monster.

[buzaw]

I often disagreed with arod, but, imo, he was ftmp, very sensible, impartial and intelligent. If I were ever to be judged by a motal, I'd feel confident with arod.

Imo, when you're as impartial to all as he was, you will have few friends as you likely will at some point admonish all.


My experience with that prick was far less one of impartiality. He showed a distinct partiality toward people who caused harm to children in the service of their allegedly greater cause. When he couldn't adequately defend his position he became a little bitch. As for his admonishments of me or anyone else just who the heck is HE to admonish anyone for anything? You can only do that if you remain above reproach yourself. Once you have demonstrated that your only concern is for yourself you have conceded that position and become just another insensitive monster.


Actually I don't think he admonished that much. That was my poor choice of words. What I meant is that no matter who you are, he would agree or disagree on the basis of content, not on whether or not he liked you. Whatever position he took, it was not based on any bias for the most part as I could determine.

Actually I don't think he admonished that much. That was my poor choice of words. What I meant is that no matter who you are, he would agree or disagree on the basis of content, not on whether or not he liked you. Whatever position he took, it was not based on any bias for the most part as I could determine.


When he expressed his contempt for me it showed a definite bias. I do not take it entirely personally as I had backed him into a corner and he merely lashed out like the little bitch that he was. Had he copped to having done so we would not be having THIS conversation but the little bitch wasn't man enough to do that.

Actually I don't think he admonished that much. That was my poor choice of words. What I meant is that no matter who you are, he would agree or disagree on the basis of content, not on whether or not he liked you. Whatever position he took, it was not based on any bias for the most part as I could determine.


When he expressed his contempt for me it showed a definite bias. I do not take it entirely personally as I had backed him into a corner and he merely lashed out like the little bitch that he was. Had he copped to having done so we would not be having THIS conversation but the little bitch wasn't man enough to do that.


Which time of the many are you talking about? Between you and Sky arod spent a lot of time in the corner. I backed him into the corner a few times too; his only come back to me was to compare my thinking pot should be legal to child porn.

Which time of the many are you talking about? Between and Sky arod spent a lot of time in the corner. I backed him into the corner a few times too; his only come back to me was to compare my thinking pot should be legal to child porn.


Ah yes, the old unreasonable comparison or extreme/irrelevant analogy trick. Yep that was one of his more common feats of weasleness. It starts with 'that's like saying...' or 'then you must also believe...' and ends with something so utterly outrageous that it leaves you stunned for a moment that they could either be that stupid or that desperate for an evasion.

Arod was never once man enough to admit that he could be wrong or that his tactics were in the least bit reprehensible.

I love Buz and I think he is a clever man but I think he was simply snowed by Nimrod's facade of calm and civility. I would rather have someone tell me to go to hell or call me an asshole than to feign some sort of moral and/or intellectual superiority in a passive-aggresive manner like Arod's. I'll be the first one to let someone know if I have found them to be more knowledgeable on a subject or more generally clever than I am...and there had been a very few on NM. Arod was too self-absorbed to realize he wasn't all that clever.

[LanceALott]

OAG: Since we are on the subject of the Holocaust I have a question. Was the persecution of the Jews driven by
a) Racism
b) Religion
c) Economics?

All of the above, buy You left out a choice: politics.

Hitler, and his NAZIs were a miserable failure at running Germany, and they needed scapegoats to blame for their failures. Sort of like blaming Al Gore for being so darn stupid that an even dumber Bush got close enough to steal the election.

But you are right, economics played a vital role too. Hitler once said something like: Those worthless Jews are eating food that could go to feed my valuable soldiers.

But contrary to popular opinion, the Holycost did not start with the Jews. The first victims were 200,000 mentally ill and retarded Germans that the failing Nazi system could not feed.

Ed, one death of an innocent is too many.

Which time of the many are you talking about? Between and Sky arod spent a lot of time in the corner. I backed him into the corner a few times too; his only come back to me was to compare my thinking pot should be legal to child porn.


Ah yes, the old unreasonable comparison or extreme/irrelevant analogy trick. Yep that was one of his more common feats of weasleness. It starts with 'that's like saying...' or 'then you must also believe...' and ends with something so utterly outrageous that it leaves you stunned for a moment that they could either be that stupid or that desperate for an evasion.

Arod was never once man enough to admit that he could be wrong or that his tactics were in the least bit reprehensible.

I love Buz and I think he is a clever man but I think he was simply snowed by Nimrod's facade of calm and civility. I would rather have someone tell me to go to hell or call me an asshole than to feign some sort of moral and/or intellectual superiority in a passive-aggresive manner like Arod's. I'll be the first one to let someone know if I have found them to be more knowledgeable on a subject or more generally clever than I am...and there had been a very few on NM. Arod was too self-absorbed to realize he wasn't all that clever.


Oh I remember it all too well, and there was no responding to his evasion because it was too far out in left field to be believed. When you didn't respond he would act like he had won the argument. What a moron.

[buzaw]

How many Jewswould the Nazis have had to have killed to beconstrued as evil?


None. All that would have to be shown for them to be evil is that their doctrine/ideology is evil. If they simply advertized that Jews were not worthy of the blessings others enjoyed and of life, that would make them evil, imo.

This is why I consider Islam to be every bit as evil as Nazism. It not only teaches it's adherants to kill the innocent, but it's prophet killed thousands and the holocaust has raged through the centuries. In the last decade about 2 million have died in Islamic holocaust in Sudan alone and the world leaders go on their merry way with a deaf ear to the cries. Islam, like the Nazis consider a segment of the world's population unfit to live.

OAG: Since we are on the subject of the Holocaust I have a question. Was the persecution of the Jews driven by
a) Racism
b) Religion
c) Economics?

All of the above, buy You left out a choice: politics.

Hitler, and his NAZIs were a miserable failure at running Germany, and they needed scapegoats to blame for their failures. Sort of like blaming Al Gore for being so darn stupid that an even dumber Bush got close enough to steal the election.

But you are right, economics played a vital role too. Hitler once said something like: Those worthless Jews are eating food that could go to feed my valuable soldiers.

But contrary to popular opinion, the Holycost did not start with the Jews. The first victims were 200,000 mentally ill and retarded Germans that the failing Nazi system could not feed.

Ed, one death of an innocent is too many.


Yes, I'm aware that there were millions of other, "less desireable" human beings whom the Nazis exterminated. The homosexuals, artists, etc. were a huge group and they were of german decent. Hitler simply found groups of people to rid himself of and confiscate their wealth.

Either way, economics or politics and most likely the even distribution of both, it was quite a brilliant idea for his Nazi regime. It served multiple purposes and supported his efforts.

[Chutzpah]

It isn't the number it is the manner and motive which makes it evil.

It isn't the number it is the manner and motive which makes it evil.


Right. A guy who maliciously murders one person isn't somehow less evil than a guy who murders 3 or 4.

[buzaw]

It isn't the number it is the manner and motive which makes it evil.


Right. A guy who maliciously murders one person isn't somehow less evil than a guy who murders 3 or 4.


It's just that a few don't fit the description of holocaust. Holocaust is imo a word implying thousands, at least. It is something nations generally do, or despots of nations. Genocide is another similar word, but the Genocide Treaty has distorted the word "genocide" to include mental harm which imo is a very dangerous precedent. The US Senate and Congress ratified this UN treaty under Reagan and Reagan infamously signed it, making it US law subject all citizens of the good ole US of A to world court without a jury trial for something one of us may say about some religion, race, or group.

The generalized evil that took place in Germany has always been fascinating to me. That people turned their neighbors over to the gestapo for torture and/or execution blows my mind. The nazi soldiers who ran the camps, tortured and exterminated the Jews are a puzzle to me because I could not become cruel and inhuman just because I was following orders. In the end I don't think we really have a yardstick for measuring evil. We simply find certain exercises of it more appalling than others.

[buzaw]

The generalized evil that took place in Germany has always been fascinating to me. That people turned their neighbors over to the gestapo for torture and/or execution blows my mind. The nazi soldiers who ran the camps, tortured and exterminated the Jews are a puzzle to me because I could not become cruel and inhuman just because I was following orders. In the end I don't think we really have a yardstick for measuring evil. We simply find certain exercises of it more appalling than others.


A lot of it has to do with the power of deception. Like the Islamics, they likely figured the greater cause was being served. The US seems to be aiding and abetting the genocide in the Sudan because we have an interest in the rich oil fields of the Christian south which is being exploited by the central Islamic government.

[Chutzpah]

It's just that a few don't fit the description of holocaust. Holocaust is imo a word implying thousands, at least. It is something nations generally do, or despots of nations. Genocide is another similar word, but the Genocide Treaty has distorted the word "genocide" to include mental harm which imo is a very dangerous precedent. The US Senate and Congress ratified this UN treaty under Reagan and Reagan infamously signed it, making it US law subject all citizens of the good ole US of A to world court without a jury trial for something one of us may say about some religion, race, or group.


Your exactly right. By definition the murder of one does not constitute a holocaust.

Holocaust:
1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.

Holocaust is not a synonym for evil.

[buzaw]

Holocaust:
1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.

Holocaust is not a synonym for evil.


Yah, you're right, come to think of it. It can be by evil, but not necessarily, whereas genocide is always evil.

The generalized evil that took place in Germany has always been fascinating to me. That people turned their neighbors over to the gestapo for torture and/or execution blows my mind. The nazi soldiers who ran the camps, tortured and exterminated the Jews are a puzzle to me because I could not become cruel and inhuman just because I was following orders. In the end I don't think we really have a yardstick for measuring evil. We simply find certain exercises of it more appalling than others.


I've always found it fascinating to think about what could turn an average human into an SS or Gestapo officer. You know those men and women were just average people, like the rest of us. What made them do the things they did to other neighbours? Even more important, what would it take to turn us into the same thing?

[buzaw]

The generalized evil that took place in Germany has always been fascinating to me. That people turned their neighbors over to the gestapo for torture and/or execution blows my mind. The nazi soldiers who ran the camps, tortured and exterminated the Jews are a puzzle to me because I could not become cruel and inhuman just because I was following orders. In the end I don't think we really have a yardstick for measuring evil. We simply find certain exercises of it more appalling than others.


I've always found it fascinating to think about what could turn an average human into an SS or Gestapo officer. You know those men and women were just average people, like the rest of us. What made them do the things they did to other neighbours? Even more important, what would it take to turn us into the same thing?


The power of deception and the reality of an evil devil. Imo, that's the only explanation that makes sense.

The generalized evil that took place in Germany has always been fascinating to me. That people turned their neighbors over to the gestapo for torture and/or execution blows my mind. The nazi soldiers who ran the camps, tortured and exterminated the Jews are a puzzle to me because I could not become cruel and inhuman just because I was following orders. In the end I don't think we really have a yardstick for measuring evil. We simply find certain exercises of it more appalling than others.


I've always found it fascinating to think about what could turn an average human into an SS or Gestapo officer. You know those men and women were just average people, like the rest of us. What made them do the things they did to other neighbours? Even more important, what would it take to turn us into the same thing?


The power of deception and the reality of an evil devil. Imo, that's the only explanation that makes sense.


You totally discount my point by bring up mythology. You talk about something that is completely and totally evil when I talk about average humans. Surely you are not so naive as to believe that anyone is completely evil.

I can agree about the deception though. If you lie to people, especially people who are as completely down trodden as the Germans you can easily rule them.

[Observer]

It was the uniforms.

No, that was not intended as some flippant, meaningless statement. Both through personal experience (conversations) and the reading of private journals as well as published biographies, it is readily apparent that many members of the SS were drawn in by the pomp and ceremony, the glamor, the prestige, and the privileges afforded its members.

In the early days, many were opposed to the SS. They were looked upon by many in German society as thugs and misfits. However, as they became more powerful and influential, membership in the SS became an important stepping stone for personal advancement. Eventually, to oppose the SS became virtually the same as opposing Germany itself. Failure to cooperate was definitely NOT the key to longevity in Nazi Germany. Even the Wehrmacht was not beyond its reach.

And they dressed well.

It was the uniforms.

No, that was not intended as some flippant, meaningless statement. Both through personal experience (conversations) and the reading of private journals as well as published biographies, it is readily apparent that many members of the SS were drawn in by the pomp and ceremony, the glamor, the prestige, and the privileges afforded its members.

In the early days, many were opposed to the SS. They were looked upon by many in German society as thugs and misfits. However, as they became more powerful and influential, membership in the SS became an important stepping stone for personal advancement. Eventually, to oppose the SS became virtually the same as opposing Germany itself. Failure to cooperate was definitely NOT the key to longevity in Nazi Germany. Even the Wehrmacht was not beyond its reach.

And they dressed well.




That goes along with my point about downtrodden people. You also have to remember that many of the early members of the Nazi party were thugs and criminals. The uniforms and the prestige had to be quite a draw for someone like that.

[Observer]

Absolutely.

Absolutely.




Can you imagine going from a drunken out-of-work illiterate to a commanding member of the SS. From research I did when I was in high school some of the earliest members of the SS had very low IQs so that people like Hitler and Goebbels could command them almost absolutely; without having to deal with the questioning of intellecutuals all the time.

[arod]

The power of deception and the reality of an evil devil. Imo, that's the only explanation that makes sense.


You totally discount my point by bring up mythology.

You seem to imply here that the devil is as much a fabrication as the Easter bunny. Nonsense. Besides being documented in the Bible, the existece of demons has been documented in this century.

You talk about something that is completely and totally evil when I talk about average humans. Surely you are not so naive as to believe that anyone is completely evil.

What would be naive about such a belief? If you've ever read about the childlike glee with which Stalin manipulated his underlings into murdering each other during the purges of 1937, you might want to reconsider that idea. To all appearances, he had achieved freedom from conscience. If that isn't completly evil, what is?

[Observer]

Sure. It was actually a brilliant strategy. Take a nobody, put him a fancy uniform, give him some people to push around, let him get away with breaking the law, make him answerable only to you... Instant fanatic.

The power of deception and the reality of an evil devil. Imo, that's the only explanation that makes sense.


You totally discount my point by bring up mythology.

You seem to imply here that the devil is as much a fabrication as the Easter bunny. Nonsense. Besides being documented in the Bible, the existece of demons has been documented in this century.

You talk about something that is completely and totally evil when I talk about average humans. Surely you are not so naive as to believe that anyone is completely evil.

What would be naive about such a belief? If you've ever read about the childlike glee with which Stalin manipulated his underlings into murdering each other during the purges of 1937, you might want to reconsider that idea. To all appearances, he had achieved freedom from conscience. If that isn't completly evil, what is?


The Bible. Great counter my argument with a book that I think is a myth.

As for Stalin, he was from what I understand a very loving father. If he were completely evil he would have been an abusive prick and probably would have eaten his children. No one is completely evil. The world is not that black and white.

Sure. It was actually a brilliant strategy. Take a nobody, put him a fancy uniform, give him some people to push around, let him get away with breaking the law, make him answerable only to you... Instant fanatic.




Look how well it works today in the Arab world. Those suicide bombers are deluded and lied to. If you are told that killing someone will send you to paradise instantly what would you do?

[Lance]

arod: Where are "demons" emperically documented? I would like to see the evidence of that.

Lizzie: Germany at the time of the rise of Hitler was in the midst of a "depression" which made our great depression of the 20s and early 30s look like a tea party. Plus this economic disaster was directly the outcome of the Treaty of Versalles which ended WWI. Thus Hitler had a population that was hurting deeply and had an external enemy to blame.

And Hitler did improve the lot of the German people early on; thus they tended to "look the other way" at some of the bad things he did. We saw that with Clinton just recently. The economy was good, thus nobody was willing to listen too hard about serious allegations against the president.

The holocaust as has been discussed before had its roots in the German Lutheran faith as a popular attitude of that time was that the Jews were the "christ killers". So Hitler had another easy target that he could classify as an "enemy" that the German people had to fight.

Its the oldest political trick in the book in uniting your people against a common foe. And we see it happening today with the Arabs and Saddam Insane.

arod: Where are "demons" emperically documented? I would like to see the evidence of that.

Lizzie: Germany at the time of the rise of Hitler was in the midst of a "depression" which made our great depression of the 20s and early 30s look like a tea party. Plus this economic disaster was directly the outcome of the Treaty of Versalles which ended WWI. Thus Hitler had a population that was hurting deeply and had an external enemy to blame.

And Hitler did improve the lot of the German people early on; thus they tended to "look the other way" at some of the bad things he did. We saw that with Clinton just recently. The economy was good, thus nobody was willing to listen too hard about serious allegations against the president.

The holocaust as has been discussed before had its roots in the German Lutheran faith as a popular attitude of that time was that the Jews were the "christ killers". So Hitler had another easy target that he could classify as an "enemy" that the German people had to fight.

Its the oldest political trick in the book in uniting your people against a common foe. And we see it happening today with the Arabs and Saddam Insane.


Exactly the point I was making. If the economy is good you can almost lead people around by their noses. The advantage Hitler had over Clinton was that Hitler could kill off people who questioned him or disagreed with him. In fact he killed off whole segments of the population who disagreed with him or stood in his way.

[arod]

The Bible. Great counter my argument with a book that I think is a myth.

May I take that to mean that your beliefs are not founded on myths?

As for Stalin, he was from what I understand a very loving father. If he were completely evil he would have been an abusive prick and probably would have eaten his children.

You have no reason to believe that. OTOH, there is certainly reason to believe that his children gave him political standing in a country whose Christian roots were still strong.

Even discounting that, however, you can bet your boots that Stalin loved what was rotten in his children, not what was good. Had they shown signs of goodness - by seeing that he was a murderer and calling him on it, for instance, you can bet your sweet bippy he'd have either killed them or intimidated them into submission. Hell, maybe that's what he did.

No one is completely evil.

You have no evidence for that assertion...but you still haven't answered my question: what is naive about believing a person can be totally evil?

The Bible. Great counter my argument with a book that I think is a myth.

May I take that to mean that your beliefs are not founded on myths?

As for Stalin, he was from what I understand a very loving father. If he were completely evil he would have been an abusive prick and probably would have eaten his children.

You have no reason to believe that. OTOH, there is certainly reason to believe that his children gave him political standing in a country whose Christian roots were still strong.

Even discounting that, however, you can bet your boots that Stalin loved what was rotten in his children, not what was good. Had they shown signs of goodness - by seeing that he was a murderer and calling him on it, for instance, you can bet your sweet bippy he'd have either killed them or intimidated them into submission. Hell, maybe that's what he did.

No one is completely evil.

You have no evidence for that assertion...but you still haven't answered my question: what is naive about believing a person can be totally evil?


Everyone has something positive about them. Even Clinton though I find him to be morally repugnant in most regards.

[arod]

arod: Where are "demons" emperically documented? I would like to see the evidence of that.

I did not use the word "empirical". Malachi Martin, in "Hostage to the Devil" documents several cases of posession in more detail than one would care to read about on a full stomach.

[Lance]

arod: Okay, I went and took a look for it on Amazon. While there were a lot of reviews (69), this one seems to sum it up for me:

Catholic Propaganda, July 8, 2000
Reviewer: j.michael@disinfo.net (see more about me) from San Jose
This book is written very well, no question about it. However, it seems designed to SCARE you into belief in God. Perhaps, Mr. Martin was told to go out and write a book to bring in new members. It certainly would not be the first time the Catholics have tried such tactics! The book is just too neat in the moralism behind each case. It is reactionary against "the New Age," individualism, philosophy, and the seeking for spiritual experinces. The Catholic-Christian doctrine is built on the premise of randomly bestowed grace ie., we are on a need to know basis with God. Anything beyond the acceptance of this doctrine makes you a target for Satan and his minions. Don't question authority, don't seek to know more than the Vatican wants you to, if you care about yr soul. Again, this is a fully entertaining read, and SCARY! With the turn of every page you will expect the temperature in your room to drop! Beware, this book is graphic. The first story makes Silence of the Lambs look like Sesame Street.

I fully believe people can be "nuts" in the loosest sense of the word. They are also capable of doing both great evil and great good. But to me, this book (or others of its ilk) proves nothing.

And which "religion" are these demons? Many faiths teach the "boogeyman" to keep their followers in line. Do we know for sure that these are Catholic demons? Or could it have been an Islamic demon? (Whatever the heck they are called.)

Before I conclusively say "demons exist", I would want much more emperical proof than something like this.

[SENOR DON GATO]

Demons exist only in the mind of the frightened.

There exists good in every human being that is now or ever has walked the earth. To deny that - is to deny that every human is a creation of a God of love and goodness.

Evil is a perception. It changes from perciever to perciever. The poll ask how many Jews needed to be killed? It could also be reworded to ask "How many Muslims?"

Percpetion changes. There is good in all.

[arod]

Catholic Propaganda, July 8, 2000
Reviewer: j.michael@disinfo.net (see more about me) from San Jose
This book is written very well, no question about it. However, it seems designed to SCARE you into belief in God. Perhaps, Mr. Martin was told to go out and write a book to bring in new members. It certainly would not be the first time the Catholics have tried such tactics! The book is just too neat in the moralism behind each case. It is reactionary against "the New Age," individualism, philosophy, and the seeking for spiritual experinces. The Catholic-Christian doctrine is built on the premise of randomly bestowed grace ie., we are on a need to know basis with God. Anything beyond the acceptance of this doctrine makes you a target for Satan and his minions. Don't question authority, don't seek to know more than the Vatican wants you to, if you care about yr soul. Again, this is a fully entertaining read, and SCARY! With the turn of every page you will expect the temperature in your room to drop! Beware, this book is graphic. The first story makes Silence of the Lambs look like Sesame Street.


Let the record show that the review does not challenge the veracity of anything in the book.

BTW, I believe Amazon now allows one to preview a few pages out of some books. Rest assured that, especially in this case, reviews are not always reflective of a book's value.

[arod]

Demons exist only in the mind of the frightened.

Not so. People who are aware of the evil in them may understandably be frightened of it, but lack of fear may just as easily indicate lack of awareness akin to that of a person on drugs who drives at 100 mph without the least sense of danger.

There exists good in every human being that is now or ever has walked the earth. To deny that - is to deny that every human is a creation of a God of love and goodness.

Wrong again. It is merely a recognition that people may choose to reject God entirely in this life.

Evil is a perception. It changes from perciever to perciever.

To be sure, there are those who, knowing what it is, do not think pedophilia evil. This, of course, is because they are evil themselves.[/quote]

[SENOR DON GATO]

Demons exist only in the mind of the frightened.

Not so. People who are aware of the evil in them may understandably be frightened of it, but lack of fear may just as easily indicate lack of awareness akin to that of a person on drugs who drives at 100 mph without the least sense of danger.

There exists good in every human being that is now or ever has walked the earth. To deny that - is to deny that every human is a creation of a God of love and goodness.

Wrong again. It is merely a recognition that people may choose to reject God entirely in this life.

Evil is a perception. It changes from perciever to perciever.

To be sure, there are those who, knowing what it is, do not think pedophilia evil. This, of course, is because they are evil themselves.
[/quote]

Have you SEEN a demon? A REAl demon? I do not think so. But there are people who DO think so. Unless the average person on the street is able to see and verify 'demons' - they likely do not exist. The same is true of angels, fairies, Easter Bunnies, etc. All are common in our communication and yet all are unprovable.

Evil is a perception. Your comparision to the person on drugs is not relevant because you are using a distorted sense of reality, induced by chemicals, and comparing it to normal thought processes.

You view Hitler as evil. Hitler viewed Jews as evil. The Jews view Jesus as evil. Jesus viewed Pharisees as evil. Those who adhere to the teachings of Allah view the Christians as evil and vice versa.

What we today view as abominable and horrific murder was viewed by the Aztec Indians as a blessing when they sacrificed their children to their pagan Gods.

As far as pedophilia is concerned. I do not see the connection you were trying to make in your post. The Judaistic, Muslim, and other religions address it and even condone it. I do not agree with that. But that is because in MY world - one who hurts a child is despicable. Not so in other worlds. Perception, my friend.

[Lance]

arod: I think Senor Don Gato said it far more eloquently than I could. Essentially, if you are going to claim "demons exist", be prepared to physically show me a demon. We can not say "demons exist" strictly based on the fact that evil exists within human beings. We have no way to know the cause other than the various beliefs that abound on the planet. It would be the same thing if I was suggesting unicorns exist.

I also think many of these "possession" type of incidents are nothing more than we humans using it as an excuse for our own behavior. Its far far easier for one to say "a demon made me do it" than to admit that "I made a BAD mistake". And religions, particularly this flavor of Catholic, pander to that.

[buzaw]

Absolutely.




Can you imagine going from a drunken out-of-work illiterate to a commanding member of the SS. From research I did when I was in high school some of the earliest members of the SS had very low IQs so that people like Hitler and Goebbels could command them almost absolutely; without having to deal with the questioning of intellecutuals all the time.


Something like that could happen here. I've read where people like the crips and the bloods have been or are being trained for some overt stuff to get them off the streets. I don't know whether there's anything to it.

Absolutely.




Can you imagine going from a drunken out-of-work illiterate to a commanding member of the SS. From research I did when I was in high school some of the earliest members of the SS had very low IQs so that people like Hitler and Goebbels could command them almost absolutely; without having to deal with the questioning of intellecutuals all the time.


Something like that could happen here. I've read where people like the crips and the bloods have been or are being trained for some overt stuff to get them off the streets. I don't know whether there's anything to it.


Let's hope this is just a rumour because that's way to close to how the SS and Gestapo got started.

[LanceALott]

"some of the earliest members of the SS had very low IQs so that people like Hitler and Goebbels could command them almost absolutely; without having to deal with the questioning of intellecutuals all the time."

LanceLott: Interesting. A man recently sued a police department because he was refused a job because his IQ was too high. He lost the case, appealed to the Supreme Court, and lost agains because the department had a written policy to not hire anyone with an IQ greater than 120.

[truelies]

[quote author=buzsaw

Something like that could happen here. I've read where people like the crips and the bloods have been or are being trained for some overt stuff to get them off the streets. I don't know whether there's anything to it.

[/quote]

This is a story that went around in the Clinton Years. Probably a Black Helicopter sort of thing. The full plot line has them being trained by the Chinese in Long Beach, Ca. Still it is a page from the Standard Marxist Playbook to recruit Secret Police/Internal Security types from a minority with a history of grievances (real or imagined) against a traditional unsympathetic to Marxism majority. Consider the very high porportion of Jews in Stalin's CHECKA.

[quote author=buzsaw

Something like that could happen here. I've read where people like the crips and the bloods have been or are being trained for some overt stuff to get them off the streets. I don't know whether there's anything to it.



This is a story that went around in the Clinton Years. Probably a Black Helicopter sort of thing. The full plot line has them being trained by the Chinese in Long Beach, Ca. Still it is a page from the Standard Marxist Playbook to recruit Secret Police/Internal Security types from a minority with a history of grievances (real or imagined) against a traditional unsympathetic to Marxism majority. Consider the very high porportion of Jews in Stalin's CHECKA.
[/quote]

I do believe this is just a rumour, but if it's not this is very scary.

[arod]

Have you SEEN a demon? A REAl demon? I do not think so.

It would appear that if I say "yes", you won't believe me, so the question seems pointless.

But there are people who DO think so.

Especially children, even though they call them monsters or some such rather than demons. They are able to see these things because, for the most part, they have not yet been pressured into losing their perception of spiritual things.

Unless the average person on the street is able to see and verify 'demons' - they likely do not exist.

The logic doesn't hold up, since neither is the average person in the street able to verify the existence of cosmic radiation. Nevertheless, most are content to take the word of the scientific cognoscenti on faith.

Moreover, this is not a matter of probability. Demons either exist or they don't.

The same is true of angels, fairies, Easter Bunnies, etc. All are common in our communication and yet all are unprovable.

If you tried to prove to me that cosmic rays exist, I could easily and credibly claim that more people have observed demons than have observed cosmic rays, since no one has ever seen cosmic radiation.

Evil is a perception. Your comparision to the person on drugs is not relevant because you are using a distorted sense of reality, induced by chemicals, and comparing it to normal thought processes.

Tell me, are the commercial jingles that run through so many people's heads indicative of normal thought processes? Is it normal to be lost in your head to the point that, when someone is talking to you, you don't hear what they're saying? Or would "average" be the better adjective?

And if, unaided by chemicals, you are able do disconnect yourself from physical realities, is it not possible that you are also able to do the same for metaphysical realities?


You view Hitler as evil. Hitler viewed Jews as evil. The Jews view Jesus as evil. Jesus viewed Pharisees as evil. Those who adhere to the teachings of Allah view the Christians as evil and vice versa.

What we today view as abominable and horrific murder was viewed by the Aztec Indians as a blessing when they sacrificed their children to their pagan Gods.

As far as pedophilia is concerned. I do not see the connection you were trying to make in your post.

I know you don't. How I could make it plainer, I haven't a clue.

The Judaistic, Muslim, and other religions address it and even condone it. I do not agree with that. But that is because in MY world - one who hurts a child is despicable. Not so in other worlds. Perception, my friend.


That's what I was getting at. When you're evil, evil looks good.

Sure. It was actually a brilliant strategy. Take a nobody, put him a fancy uniform, give him some people to push around, let him get away with breaking the law, make him answerable only to you... Instant fanatic.




I guess that is the key then. I still comes down to self-interest being the prime motivation.

However, you are talking about taking an asshole and giving him power. That asshole will then become a mean tyrant because he already had that disposition. What about the rest of the average Germans? Was it merely THEIR self-interest that they turned on their neighbors? Are people so easily swayed into hating other groups of people? to the point of wishing to see them dead? I think that is sad. Intelligence, or lack thereof must be the key to that sort of mass hysteria. I certainly won't hate anyone just because everyone around me does but then I'm not a fool and most humans seem to be fools.

Sure. It was actually a brilliant strategy. Take a nobody, put him a fancy uniform, give him some people to push around, let him get away with breaking the law, make him answerable only to you... Instant fanatic.




I guess that is the key then. I still comes down to self-interest being the prime motivation.

However, you are talking about taking an asshole and giving him power. That asshole will then become a mean tyrant because he already had that disposition. What about the rest of the average Germans? Was it merely THEIR self-interest that they turned on their neighbors? Are people so easily swayed into hating other groups of people? to the point of wishing to see them dead? I think that is sad. Intelligence, or lack thereof must be the key to that sort of mass hysteria. I certainly won't hate anyone just because everyone around me does but then I'm not a fool and most humans seem to be fools.


You'd be surprised how easily some people can be swayed. I met a very nice Muslim woman in a bookstore last year about a week after 9/11. She was telling me about how scared she was to go to the supermarket anymore, and that it wasn't just the people who normally gave her problems. She said she was surprised at the little old ladies who would whisper and sneer at her as she walked past. So yeah everyday citizens can be swayed pretty easily.