Space Shuttle

[Persephone]

Are you watching the news? It looks like we lost Columbia and its crew.

Yes. Sad.

Deeply saddening... yes I am watching...

[BrandonL]

I am in shock...

[Persephone]

And on landing too. How horrible for the families waiting to welcome them home. Heartbreaking.

[Satan]

It is sad. And it would be nice if the media would give us five minutes to compose ourselves before they start into the wild speculations about terrorism at 200,000 feet. ::)

[LanceALott]

Sky, at 200,000 feet is there enough air to carry the sound of an explosion?

Reports say they heard a big boom

[wendy]

I'm hearing all sorts of stuff. Supposedly it came in early...perhaps it reentered at too steep an angle.

It went right over our heads here.

They said some parts blew off during launch.??

My sister just called from Tyler, TX and said there was a loud boom that shook her house.

[wendy]

Sky, at 200,000 feet is there enough air to carry the sound of an explosion?

Reports say they heard a big boom


http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/nation/1760567

[jeny]

What a horrible thing to happen. :(

[ilovelucy]

This is horrific for the friends and families of the crew....

I am　going to say something here that you may or may not like,　but I think given the current hostility and heightened terror alerts involving Arab, Israeli and American interests, I think it was rather imprudent to have the Israeli officer on board at this time--

just my opinion, but his presence endangered our astronauts needlessly......

so sad for those grieving....

[jeny]

Reminds me of the challenger, I was in the 4th grade when that happened. We were watching th launch in Mrs. Cunnigham's classroom and she broke down in hysterics because she was a personal friend of Christa Mcauliff, also a teacher in NH.

[truelies]

No doubt HRC will stand on the Floor of the Senate on Monday to praise the brave crew of Columbia AND to lament the contributions of the Bush Taxcuts yo their demise.

[Persephone]

Reminds me of the challenger, I was in the 4th grade when that happened. We were watching th launch in Mrs. Cunnigham's classroom and she broke down in hysterics because she was a personal friend of Christa Mcauliff, also a teacher in NH.



Yes, I've been thinking about the Challenger all morning too. My mother was teaching 5th graders then, and they were watching it live. What an awful thing.

I heard about the Challenger on the radio in the student union at my college. You'd have never heard the place go so quiet for anything else.

[wendy]

Profiles of the Columbia crew:

http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77254,00.html

[Persephone]

It's too hard to think about who they are.

[BrandonL]

I am going to say something here that you may or may not like, but I think given the current hostility and heightened terror alerts involving Arab, Israeli and American interests, I think it was rather imprudent to have the Israeli officer on board at this time--That's probably not the case here. If you've ever been to pads 39A & 39B it's not exactly easy to get to the shuttle to plant something on it. And, all workers are highly screened.

[jeny]

It's too hard to think about who they are.


I know, CNN was doing a profile and it was just so sad.

[wendy]

We cannot let threats of terrorism cripple us or they have WON. >:(

[jeny]

We cannot let threats of terrorism cripple us or they have WON. >:(


In total agreement Wendy.

[Bassman]

They knew the risks of taking the mission.Quite unfortunate.
Another NASA fuck-up.A piece of the fuel tank insulation struck the leading edge of the port wing on liftoff.Since NASA's already loudly downplaying that,there's your answer.

[Satan]

Reminds me of the challenger, I was in the 4th grade when that happened.

:o

Jesus, I wish you'd stop doing that... ::)

:-*

[wendy]

They knew the risks of taking the mission.Quite unfortunate.
Another NASA fuck-up.A piece of the fuel tank insulation struck the leading edge of the port wing on liftoff.Since NASA's already loudly downplaying that,there's your answer.


Nasa isn't just downplaying it..they're dismissing it out of hand.

Columbia was the oldest shuttle in the fleet. They take a hell of a beating on reentry..perhaps their lifespan isn't quite as long as Nasa would like.

[BrandonL]

They knew the risks of taking the mission.Quite unfortunate.
Another NASA fuck-up.A piece of the fuel tank insulation struck the leading edge of the port wing on liftoff.Since NASA's already loudly downplaying that,there's your answer.
Pieces of insulation have hit and knocked off tiles before. That's why they can be pretty sure they can dismiss it. The astronauts can see the wings-and more than likely did a visual inspection. They aren't that stupid where they don't do checks on items like that.

They knew the risks of taking the mission.Quite unfortunate.
Another NASA fuck-up.A piece of the fuel tank insulation struck the leading edge of the port wing on liftoff.Since NASA's already loudly downplaying that,there's your answer.
Pieces of insulation have hit and knocked off tiles before. That's why they can be pretty sure they can dismiss it. The astronauts can see the wings-and more than likely did a visual inspection. They aren't that stupid where they don't do checks on items like that.


But aren't some tiles more critical than others? Do you think they will ever know what happened?

[BrandonL]

But aren't some tiles more critical than others? Do you think they will ever know what happened?

Some are-but the most critical ones are on the bottom, the leeding edge of the vertical stabilizer, the trailing edges of the wings, and the tip of the nose. Shuttles have had damaged and/or missing tiles from those areas before.

We'll probably be able to figure out-depending on how many of your state-mates find debris.

[LanceALott]

wendy: We cannot let threats of terrorism cripple us or they have WON.

LaL: And the spped with which everyone thought of terrorism, is evidence that they have won. After 9-11, it's always there, on the back of everyone's mind, ready to pop out to explain any and all tragedies. Now they do not even need terrorists.

They have won, so who do we surrender to?

But aren't some tiles more critical than others? Do you think they will ever know what happened?

Some are-but the most critical ones are on the bottom, the leeding edge of the vertical stabilizer, the trailing edges of the wings, and the tip of the nose. Shuttles have had damaged and/or missing tiles from those areas before.

We'll probably be able to figure out-depending on how many of your state-mates find debris.


It could be that when ice formed during launch broke off and damaged some of the tiles and coming in at speed of six times the speed of sound caused more tiles to come off broke the shuttle up. My sister who lives in Tyler, Tx said they are all over the place looking for debris, some has been found.

[Bassman]

They knew the risks of taking the mission.Quite unfortunate.
Another NASA fuck-up.A piece of the fuel tank insulation struck the leading edge of the port wing on liftoff.Since NASA's already loudly downplaying that,there's your answer.
Pieces of insulation have hit and knocked off tiles before. That's why they can be pretty sure they can dismiss it. The astronauts can see the wings-and more than likely did a visual inspection. They aren't that stupid where they don't do checks on items like that.


But aren't some tiles more critical than others? Do you think they will ever know what happened?

Seems to me the leading edge of a wing is critical on any aerodynamic system,and not just for the heat shield.If it was damaged,at the speeds that thing achieves on re-entry,the air would rip her apart.
I've seen the video a bunch of times already,and there seems to be a big explosion early on,and then she starts breaking up.

[Persephone]

wendy: We cannot let threats of terrorism cripple us or they have WON.

LaL: And the spped with which everyone thought of terrorism, is evidence that they have won. After 9-11, it's always there, on the back of everyone's mind, ready to pop out to explain any and all tragedies. Now they do not even need terrorists.

They have won, so who do we surrender to?



They haven't won. This is one saga that is far from over. They will have won when we give up on trying again. Not when we worry about what has gone wrong this time.

[Bassman]

But aren't some tiles more critical than others? Do you think they will ever know what happened?

Some are-but the most critical ones are on the bottom, the leeding edge of the vertical stabilizer, the trailing edges of the wings, and the tip of the nose. Shuttles have had damaged and/or missing tiles from those areas before.

We'll probably be able to figure out-depending on how many of your state-mates find debris.


It could be that when ice formed during launch broke off and damaged some of the tiles and coming in at speed of six times the speed of sound caused more tiles to come off broke the shuttle up. My sister who lives in Tyler, Tx said they are all over the place looking for debris, some has been found.

Now they're saying they found her,near a town called Rusk,TX.

[LanceALott]

Suth: They haven't won. This is one saga that is far from over. They will have won when we give up on trying again. Not when we worry about what has gone wrong this time.

LaL: You miss my point.

Now, the terrorists are no longer the enemy. Now, the enemy is paranoia.

[Bassman]

wendy: We cannot let threats of terrorism cripple us or they have WON.

LaL: And the spped with which everyone thought of terrorism, is evidence that they have won. After 9-11, it's always there, on the back of everyone's mind, ready to pop out to explain any and all tragedies. Now they do not even need terrorists.

They have won, so who do we surrender to?

Bullshit.
What is it with you people?Why are you so overjoyed at the prospect of defeat?
If we are defeated,you lefties will be FIRST in line for the firing squads.
Christ. >:(

[Persephone]

Suth: They haven't won. This is one saga that is far from over. They will have won when we give up on trying again. Not when we worry about what has gone wrong this time.

LaL: You miss my point.

Now, the terrorists are no longer the enemy. Now, the enemy is paranoia.



Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

[BrandonL]

Seems to me the leading edge of a wing is critical on any aerodynamic system,and not just for the heat shield.If it was damaged,at the speeds that thing achieves on re-entry,the air would rip her apart.
I've seen the video a bunch of times already,and there seems to be a big explosion early on,and then she starts breaking up.

Not at 200,000 feet.

One thing to keep in mind-the Orbiter carries several thousand pounds of hypergolic fuel (ignites on contact).

They had ground telescopes looking at the Orbiter, same as they did on the first mission (where they lost several tiles-and were worried about them zippering off), and did not find significant damage of note.

Over Texas, it's already gone through most of it's decelaration. So, one could estimate, if it were tiles-it would have burned up long before.

But, only time will tell.

Suth: They haven't won. This is one saga that is far from over. They will have won when we give up on trying again. Not when we worry about what has gone wrong this time.

LaL: You miss my point.

Now, the terrorists are no longer the enemy. Now, the enemy is paranoia.


Come on LaL, it's only natural to think that with what has been going on. Nobody knows what happened yet, can't you wait until there is more information? Sounds to me like you have been sucked in my the terrorists.

[Bassman]

Seems to me the leading edge of a wing is critical on any aerodynamic system,and not just for the heat shield.If it was damaged,at the speeds that thing achieves on re-entry,the air would rip her apart.
I've seen the video a bunch of times already,and there seems to be a big explosion early on,and then she starts breaking up.

Not at 200,000 feet.

One thing to keep in mind-the Orbiter carries several thousand pounds of hypergolic fuel (ignites on contact).

They had ground telescopes looking at the Orbiter, same as they did on the first mission (where they lost several tiles-and were worried about them zippering off), and did not find significant damage of note.

Over Texas, it's already gone through most of it's decelaration. So, one could estimate, if it were tiles-it would have burned up long before.

But, only time will tell.

Buzz Aldrin just spoke of a "zipper effect",which,according to him,is what tore her apart at Mach 17-25.He said she was at the zenith of heat load during re-entry when she blew.

[BrandonL]

Buzz Aldrin just spoke of a "zipper effect",which,according to him,is what tore her apart at Mach 17-25.He said she was at the zenith of heat load during re-entry when she blew.

Yeah-it's when one critical component fails, the rest of the airframe can't handle the load. Should the hypergolics have ignited-and blew off either the nose or the tail, the rest of the Orbiter would have followed.

Should a wing have broken-or a wing spar collapsed the same would have happened as well.

Any combination of things could have happened.

[LanceALott]

Lonestar: Come on LaL, it's only natural to think that with what has been going on.

LaL: Absolutely! It is now natural to think that.

Lonestar: Nobody knows what happened yet,

LaL: Precisely! Yet the fear is there, unreasonable fear, paranoia.

Lonestar: can't you wait until there is more information? Sounds to me like you have been sucked in my the terrorists.

LaL: Read what I am saying. I doubt this had anything to do with terrorists. I juct cannot imagine Osama throwing a rock 40 miles up at mock 25, and if he did, sign him up for the Yankees.

Nor can I imagine any camel jocky shooting it down with a rocket, when they can't even hit our fighters flying much slower and much lower.

So the fear is unreasonable.

[Bassman]

Buzz Aldrin just spoke of a "zipper effect",which,according to him,is what tore her apart at Mach 17-25.He said she was at the zenith of heat load during re-entry when she blew.

Yeah-it's when one critical component fails, the rest of the airframe can't handle the load. Should the hypergolics have ignited-and blew off either the nose or the tail, the rest of the Orbiter would have followed.

Should a wing have broken-or a wing spar collapsed the same would have happened as well.

Any combination of things could have happened.

You obviously know your stuff.Now I'm hearing them warn folks away from the debris because the fuel is extremely toxic.One guy said if one breathes the fumes,their lungs will fail within 48 hours.
How the hell does THAT happen?

Lonestar: Come on LaL, it's only natural to think that with what has been going on.

LaL: Absolutely! It is now natural to think that.

Lonestar: Nobody knows what happened yet,

LaL: Precisely! Yet the fear is there, unreasonable fear, paranoia.

Lonestar: can't you wait until there is more information? Sounds to me like you have been sucked in my the terrorists.

LaL: Read what I am saying. I doubt this had anything to do with terrorists. I juct cannot imagine Osama throwing a rock 40 miles up at mock 25, and if he did, sign him up for the Yankees.

Nor can I imagine any camel jocky shooting it down with a rocket, when they can't even hit our fighters flying much slower and much lower.

So the fear is unreasonable.


Yes, I hear you. This is going to be a terrible accident based on the very hazards space flight has.

[Persephone]

LaL: Read what I am saying. I doubt this had anything to do with terrorists. I juct cannot imagine Osama throwing a rock 40 miles up at mock 25, and if he did, sign him up for the Yankees.

Nor can I imagine any camel jocky shooting it down with a rocket, when they can't even hit our fighters flying much slower and much lower.

So the fear is unreasonable.


It isn't unreasonable when you consider that most people are not informed enough to know what is possible at that altitude and speed. They are watching the news for information. They will, for the most part, accept that it is not terrorists once they hear the reasons.

I can't do anything about the people who still believe Elvis is alive and who will believe whatever the fuck they want regardless of the informations available.

Everyone else is just waiting for facts and dealing with the emotional impact of a national tragedy.

[wendy]

You obviously know your stuff.Now I'm hearing them warn folks away from the debris because the fuel is extremely toxic.One guy said if one breathes the fumes,their lungs will fail within 48 hours.
How the hell does THAT happen?


How much residue (hydrazine & nitrogen trioxide) would actually be left if it disintigrated at 200,000 feet?

[BrandonL]

You obviously know your stuff.Now I'm hearing them warn folks away from the debris because the fuel is extremely toxic.One guy said if one breathes the fumes,their lungs will fail within 48 hours.
How the hell does THAT happen?
Well, the propellants used are self igniting when they come into contact with each other-but, when stored seperately, they are QUITE toxic.

[Bassman]

You obviously know your stuff.Now I'm hearing them warn folks away from the debris because the fuel is extremely toxic.One guy said if one breathes the fumes,their lungs will fail within 48 hours.
How the hell does THAT happen?


How much residue would actually be left if it disintigrated at 200,000 feet?

Apparently a lot,because some town in TX is covered in wreckage,that stuff is really nasty,and takes a very small amout to fuck one up.
Another thought...are there not still folks on the space station?They're gonna want to come back,and there's only one way to pick 'em up.Not gonna be able to ground the shuttle fleet til they're home.

[BrandonL]

How much residue (hydrazine & nitrogen trioxide) would actually be left if it disintigrated at 200,000 feet?

There may not be much at all. But-it's good to be cautious. Especially if one of the OMS or RCS tanks happens to land intact.

[BrandonL]

Another thought...are there not still folks on the space station?They're gonna want to come back,and there's only one way to pick 'em up.Not gonna be able to ground the shuttle fleet til they're home.

There's a Soyuz capsule attached to the station which is the rescume module. They'll come down in that.

[Bassman]

Another thought...are there not still folks on the space station?They're gonna want to come back,and there's only one way to pick 'em up.Not gonna be able to ground the shuttle fleet til they're home.

There's a Soyuz capsule attached to the station which is the rescume module. They'll come down in that.

Was unaware of that.Thanks.

[BrandonL]

The writeup on N204:
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~draymond/space/n2o4.htm

Looking for the writeup on Monomethyl Hydrazine for ya..

I had a feeling something bad was going to happen today.

Without turning on the news, may I presme the press is handling it like this?


I make my living off the Evening News
Just give me something-something I can use
People love it when you lose,
They love dirty laundry

Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here
I just have to look good, I don't have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear
Give us dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em all around

We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who
comes on at five
She can tell you 'bout the plane crash with a gleam
in her eye
It's interesting when people die-
Give us dirty laundry

Can we film the operation?
Is the head dead yet?
You know, the boys in the newsroom got a
running bet
Get the widow on the set!
We need dirty laundry

You don't really need to find out what's going on
You don't really want to know just how far it's gone
Just leave well enough love
Eat your dirty laundry

Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down

Kick 'em when they're up
Kick 'em when they're down
Kick 'em when they're stiff
Kick 'em all around

Dirty little secrets
Dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers in everybody's pie
We love to cut you down to size
We love dirty laundry

We can do "The Innuendo"
We can dance and sing
When it's said and done we haven't told you a thing
We all know that Crap is King
Give us dirty laundry!

As of yet we don't know what happened, but we can be sure that it has nothing to do with Osama bin Laden unless he has someone on the inside at NASA to plant a bug in the re-entry program. I remember hearing one reporter talking about shoulder launched missles. Well if Osama has missles with a 39-mile range we need him on our side ok.

As for the "explosion" that people heard, it's called a sonic boom. At the point where people heard the sound of an explosion they were hearing the shuttle traveling at six times the speed of sound.

More likely than not, there was some glitch in the re-entry program and the shuttle came in at too steep an angle. The shuttle broke apart and disintergrated along with all those on board.

[Persephone]

So many dreams dead. Long live the dream.

[NorNec]

I had a feeling something bad was going to happen today.



I was up all night thinking that this was gonna happen. Isreal, Iraq, Palistine Tx. what to think? what to think!

[Persephone]

I just spoke to my brother the physicist, thinking he would have some precise technical explanation for what happened. All he said was, "Don't listen to all that crap. There isn't enough information yet to even speculate."

I was up all night thinking that this was gonna happen. Isreal, Iraq, Palistine Tx. what to think? what to think!


Hi, NorNec. I had no idea you were precognizant. How've you been?

[NorNec]

I was up all night thinking that this was gonna happen. Isreal, Iraq, Palistine Tx. what to think? what to think!


Hi, NorNec. I had no idea you were precognizant. How've you been?



Quite simply....overwhelmed. We are close to the end in my book, not that anyone cares. But it is ironic that most of the shuttle crashes in Palistine! wierd.

I just spoke to my brother the physicist, thinking he would have some precise technical explanation for what happened. All he said was, "Don't listen to all that crap. There isn't enough information yet to even speculate."


Good advice.

I was up all night thinking that this was gonna happen. Isreal, Iraq, Palistine Tx. what to think? what to think!


Hi, NorNec. I had no idea you were precognizant. How've you been?



Quite simply....overwhelmed. We are close to the end in my book, not that anyone cares. But it is ironic that most of the shuttle crashes in Palistine! wierd.


It didn't crash in Palistine, Texas NorNec, it's spread over 150 to 200 miles, mostly near St. Augstine which is a hundred miles east of Palistine. Nice try though. ;)

It didn't crash in Palistine, Texas NorNec, it's spread over 150 to 200 miles, mostly near St. Augstine which is a hundred miles east of Palistine. Nice try though. ;)


There's a Palistine, Texas? Holy Crapola! I feel a Whore of Babylon thread coming on.

[wendy]

I was up all night thinking that this was gonna happen. Isreal, Iraq, Palistine Tx. what to think? what to think!


Hi, NorNec. I had no idea you were precognizant. How've you been?



Quite simply....overwhelmed. We are close to the end in my book, not that anyone cares. But it is ironic that most of the shuttle crashes in Palistine! wierd.


It didn't crash in Palistine, Texas NorNec, it's spread over 150 to 200 miles, mostly near St. Augstine which is a hundred miles east of Palistine. Nice try though. ;)


Thank you. ::)

The debris is scattered over three states.

[Persephone]

It didn't crash in Palistine, Texas NorNec, it's spread over 150 to 200 miles, mostly near St. Augstine which is a hundred miles east of Palistine. Nice try though. ;)


There's a Palistine, Texas? Holy Crapola! I feel a Whore of Babylon thread coming on.


I've never been to Palistine, Texas, but I have been to Paris.

And I've never been to Heaven, but I've been to Oklahoma.

[BrandonL]

I'm still numb...I can't believe it still.

They are showing weather radar on CNN now-you can see debris in a long swath.

I was up all night thinking that this was gonna happen. Isreal, Iraq, Palistine Tx. what to think? what to think!


Hi, NorNec. I had no idea you were precognizant. How've you been?



Quite simply....overwhelmed. We are close to the end in my book, not that anyone cares. But it is ironic that most of the shuttle crashes in Palistine! wierd.


It didn't crash in Palistine, Texas NorNec, it's spread over 150 to 200 miles, mostly near St. Augstine which is a hundred miles east of Palistine. Nice try though. ;)


Well it didn't exactly crash either; it broke up before it had a chance to crash. Of course the overly paranoid are going to see this as a sign that the end is near. I guess burning your toast in the morning is also a sign that the end is near.

[wendy]

I can't wait till congress "investigates" this. ::)

I'm sure we'll hear lots of calls about shutting down the space program and using the money "for the children".

They need to reform NASA and pour even more money into it. Screw the social programs.

I'm still numb...I can't believe it still.

They are showing weather radar on CNN now-you can see debris in a long swath.


Of course you can, the shuttle was 39-miles up and traveling at mach 6.

I feel really bad for their families. The seven on board probably didn't feel a thing though so I guess that's some small comfort. They probably didn't even know what hit them actually.

[NorNec]

As I said, MOST of it crashed in Palistine, TX. Wierd.

Thats all, just wierd.

Okay. I turned on the t.v. As suspected, there are "probably no survivors" and it isn't terrorist related. ::)

[wendy]

It was going faster than that. 12,500mph (estimated). It probably happened so fast the crew didn't even have a chance to understand what was happening.

Okay. I turned on the t.v. As suspected, there are "probably no survivors" ::) and it isn't terrorist related. ::)


Who came up with that wonderful little tidbit of news? I knew the moment I heard this, that there were no survivors.

[BrandonL]

Who came up with that wonderful little tidbit of news?
The white house announced it to the AP.

Who came up with that wonderful little tidbit of news?
The white house announced it to the AP.


Wow! Right on top of things aren't they.

As I said, MOST of it crashed in Palistine, TX. Wierd.

Thats all, just wierd.


Wrong .... as usual.

[BrandonL]

It was going faster than that. 12,500mph (estimated). It probably happened so fast the crew didn't even have a chance to understand what was happening.

The 12,500 mph was the last telemetry they had from the orbiter. The higher you are-the lower the speed of sound (temperature factors in as well), so at sea level 12,500 mph is about mach 12.

As I said, MOST of it crashed in Palistine, TX. Wierd.

Thats all, just wierd.


Most of it is spread over three states. They heard a sonic book in Palistine, TX.

Most of it is spread over three states. They heard a sonic book in Palistine, TX.


Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o

[NorNec]

As I said, MOST of it crashed in Palistine, TX. Wierd.

Thats all, just wierd.


Wrong .... as usual.


Denile is not river in Egypt. :P

Most of it is spread over three states. They heard a sonic book in Palistine, TX.


Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


Of course not. I just don't want the NWO to know that I'm on to them.

[wendy]

Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.

Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.


Why not? He was usually at least one of the first in line at NM.

When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.


I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of people are fervently reading Revelations at this very moment to find a connection to all this...and you know what?

I'd bet my ass they'll find one.

[Satan]

I just lowered the flags at our office to half-mast. As long as I've been here, it's the hardest thing I've ever been asked to do.

:(

[NorNec]

Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.



I just said it was wierd that an Isreali, would die over Palistine. You are the loon making it an example for the woodwork. Nice craftsmanship, Norm.

When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.


I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of people are fervently reading Revelations at this very moment to find a connection to all this...and you know what?

I'd bet my ass they'll find one.


They always do.

Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.


He must be the chief of idiots.

[NorNec]

When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.


I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of people are fervently reading Revelations at this very moment to find a connection to all this...and you know what?

I'd bet my ass they'll find one.


They always do.



and prey tell, what the the stars have to say about this? Moon over parador will bring havoc to the witches....?

[Persephone]

I just lowered the flags at our office to half-mast. As long as I've been here, it's the hardest thing I've ever been asked to do.

:(



Man, that's always rough.

The hardest thing I've ever had to do at work was to walk into a classroom full of students and tell them about the WTC. Most of them in my first class that morning had not heard until they got to class.

He must be the chief of idiots.


Somewhere...some village is looking for him. ;D

[wendy]

and prey tell,

Prey tell?

That seem strangely appropriate coming from your keyboard. :-*

When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.


I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of people are fervently reading Revelations at this very moment to find a connection to all this...and you know what?

I'd bet my ass they'll find one.


They always do.



and prey tell, what the the stars have to say about this? Moon over parador will bring havoc to the witches....?


The stars say that shit happens, and usually it means nothing more than mechanical or technical failure. Only complete idiots see divine revelations in everything.

Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.



I just said it was wierd that an Isreali, would die over Palistine. You are the loon making it an example for the woodwork. Nice craftsmanship, Norm.


Now he's trying to downplay is initial over-reaction.

[NorNec]

Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.



I just said it was wierd that an Isreali, would die over Palistine. You are the loon making it an example for the woodwork. Nice craftsmanship, Norm.


Now he's trying to downplay is initial over-reaction.


Sweety, lizzard, honey.....I just said it was wierd. You keep playing. and don't throw sand no more.

Government plot. They're "planting" parts all over the place to take away the significance from Palistine, Texas.

Get with the program. I had no idea you were this naive. :o


When they first mentioned Palestine, Texas...I knew all the loons would be coming out of the woodwork. I just didn't realize NorNec would be the first to step forward.



I just said it was wierd that an Isreali, would die over Palistine. You are the loon making it an example for the woodwork. Nice craftsmanship, Norm.


Now he's trying to downplay is initial over-reaction.


Sweety, lizzard, honey.....I just said it was wierd. You keep playing. and don't throw sand no more.


I think the word you're looking for is coincidence.

[NorNec]

No....I think it is wierd.

No....I think it is wierd.


That too dear. Maybe even a bit ironic.

[NorNec]

No....I think it is wierd.


That too dear. Maybe even a bit ironic.


Bingo!

No....I think I'm wierd.


Yeah, we know.

[BrandonL]

They have already updated the home page of the Columbia:

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/sts-107/mission-sts-107.html

[Persephone]

They have already updated the home page of the Columbia:

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/sts-107/mission-sts-107.html




It is strange, isn't it? Reading the words so official and matter of fact. "Landing did not occur," "Deorbit burn."

You know what they really wanted to say was "HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!" If they could form words at all, that is.

[BrandonL]

You know what they really wanted to say was "HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!" If they could form words at all, that is.

That's basically what I said to my dad when he called this morning. I go to about two launches and landings a year (depending on schedule) with this launch being one I went to.

To me this is just as shocking as the WTC-since I follow the space program so closely (being a huge dream of mine).

:'(

[Persephone]

You know what they really wanted to say was "HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!" If they could form words at all, that is.

That's basically what I said to my dad when he called this morning. I go to about two launches and landings a year (depending on schedule) with this launch being one I went to.

To me this is just as shocking as the WTC-since I follow the space program so closely (being a huge dream of mine).

:'(



Keep the dream. It's one of the best.

I know what you mean, though. I don't follow the space program nearly that closely, but I'm feeling very shaken up by this.

I know some people are going to start saying that the space program should be scrapped because of this, but none of the seven on board would have wanted that. They knew the dangers going in. They were willing to take the chances.

We need to continue on.

We need to continue on.


Until we find another means of propulsion and bringing it to faster speeds, the space program is worthless. All we can "explore" is the inner planets. Until we have discovered the means to travel in a more rapid fashion, I think it should be scrapped as a waste of time.

IMHO, of course.

[wendy]

Until we find another means of propulsion and bringing it to faster speeds, the space program is worthless. All we can "explore" is the inner planets. Until we have discovered the means to travel in a more rapid fashion, I think it should be scrapped as a waste of time.

IMHO, of course.


From a pratical standpoint, you are right. The Space Shuttle is nothing more than a glorified taxi.

That said,

If we scrap the Space Program, it will never be reborn. Take a look at congress and tell me those vote-buying parasites would EVER consider ponying up the level of funding it would take to build a new Space Program from the ground up.

That said,

If we scrap the Space Program, it will never be reborn. Take a look at congress and tell me those vote-buying parasites would EVER consider ponying up the level of funding it would take to build a new Space Program from the ground up.


Where are we going with the Space Program? We're using obsolete equipment...we have the Hubble. The only thing I can see the Space Program geing good for is a weapon.

Until we find another means of propulsion and bringing it to faster speeds, the space program is worthless. All we can "explore" is the inner planets. Until we have discovered the means to travel in a more rapid fashion, I think it should be scrapped as a waste of time.

IMHO, of course.


From a pratical standpoint, you are right. The Space Shuttle is nothing more than a glorified taxi.

That said,

If we scrap the Space Program, it will never be reborn. Take a look at congress and tell me those vote-buying parasites would EVER consider ponying up the level of funding it would take to build a new Space Program from the ground up.


That's right. If we stop now we'll never start again.

[wendy]

Maybe Junior can pin this in Bin Laden or Sadaam ?


Well, we know it can't be pinned on the Canadians. The only higher techonogy they possess was bought from other nations. I doubt the have the knowledge required to even find the NASA website.

Maybe Junior can pin this in Bin Laden or Sadaam ?


Well, we know it can't be pinned on the Canadians. The only higher techonogy they possess was bought from other nations. I doubt the have the knowledge required to even find the NASA website.


The true tragedy of Canada, as told to me by a Canadian; they could have had British culture, American technology and French cuisine. Instad they got British cuisine, American culture and French technology.

Maybe Junior can pin this in Bin Laden or Sadaam ?


Well, we know it can't be pinned on the Canadians. The only higher techonogy they possess was bought from other nations. I doubt the have the knowledge required to even find the NASA website.


The true tragedy of Canada, as told to me by a Canadian; they could have had British culture, American technology and French cuisine. Instad they got British cuisine, American culture and French technology.


;D That was funny Lizzie.

I'm glad the Space Shuttle was destroyed, now you assholes will have something else to cry about.


So you're real happy seven people lost their lives today? ::)

I'm glad the Space Shuttle was destroyed, now you assholes will have something else to cry about.


So was Iraq. Iraq was happy about it too. Now in a couple weeks time Iraq will collapse.

Now fuck off, yukon.

[wendy]

I'm glad the Space Shuttle was destroyed, now you assholes will have something else to cry about.


As always, America stands ready to serve our neighbors to the North. ::)

[The Guardian]

Yukonn: Any moose droppings on this thread will be deleted or edited accordingly. If you want to gloat or taunt, keep it in the Inferno.

I vividly remember the day Challenger was lost. This is appropriate today, I believe..


High Flight
Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.

John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/prewwii/jgm.htm

[BrandonL]

Until we find another means of propulsion and bringing it to faster speeds, the space program is worthless. All we can "explore" is the inner planets. Until we have discovered the means to travel in a more rapid fashion, I think it should be scrapped as a waste of time.

IMHO, of course.
"All we can 'explore' are the inner planets".

What more do you want? Would you rather have us venture off to another solar system without discovering the nature and details of our own solar system?

We have discovered the means to faster travel-and have used it on a space mission already. It's ion propulsion. But, it involves heaving a large amount of nuclear material into space-and that sits heavy with a lot of people.

[BrandonL]

Where are we going with the Space Program? We're using obsolete equipment...we have the Hubble. The only thing I can see the Space Program geing good for is a weapon.

That's an easy question. We are invenstigating the difficulties of long term microgravity exposure on various materials (people and objects), and manufacturing processes that we don't already have.

You D O N ' T want to undertake a Mars mission (for example) not knowing what it'll require to spend three years or so in microgravity. Couple that with taking off from another body, very UNLIKE the moon.

[BrandonL]

Thanks for removing Yukonn's extremely bad post.

Yukonn-shut up.

[ilovelucy]

This is such a tragic event, especially for those who mourn the loss.

I think, though, that we can only mourn those who died for the loss of their future, but not for their fears facing this death or their resolve in facing the risks and the dangers involved in choosing this profession, an passion for which they all seemed to feel.....It is an honorable way to die--in service of one's country and its dreams and aspirations to go beyond the boundaries and redefine what it means to be fully alive.....


Brave souls....

[thebib]

All I can say is that I am just so sad .... for the men and women, for their families, for the workers at Nasa and for all Americans.

It is tragic.

[NorNec]

All I can say is that I am just so sad .... for the men and women, for their families, for the workers at Nasa and for all Americans.

It is tragic.


Amen!

[Lazarus]

Certainly, it was a tragedy.

However, there are still astronauts on the international space station.

Frankly, I would be passing bricks right now not being certain at all of the safety of my next ride home.

:'(

[wendy]

I guess I'm just naive but I'm saddened by the blasé attitude we Americans show towards our nation's accomplishments. I never thought I'd see the day that a shuttle launch would receive a 10 second sound bite on the evening news. :(

[ponygurl]

Maybe Junior can pin this in Bin Laden or Sadaam ?


Well, we know it can't be pinned on the Canadians. The only higher techonogy they possess was bought from other nations. I doubt the have the knowledge required to even find the NASA website.


On behalf of my fellow Canadians.. may I invite you to Bite my Ass ;D

[ponygurl]

My condolances to Americans and especially to the families of the lost. Truly tragic. :'(

Maybe Junior can pin this in Bin Laden or Sadaam ?


Well, we know it can't be pinned on the Canadians. The only higher techonogy they possess was bought from other nations. I doubt the have the knowledge required to even find the NASA website.


On behalf of my fellow Canadians.. may I invite you to Bite my Ass ;D


You should have read what that 'other' Canadian posted. It was so bad it got deleted which is a rarity around here but in essence he thought it was a good thing and we deserved it.

[ponygurl]

Please.. just cause one Canadian is an asshole, don't class us all as assholes.. In no manner shape or form would I suggest that this was anything less than a horrible tragedy..
Assholes exist in every country.. please don't insult my Nationality because of what one Canadian spoke..
I would love to read the post.. but it was deleted.. so I read the one that threw a pot shot at my country..
Frankly.. I love Americans.. I have many american friends. My heart goes out to you tonight.
I am not one to pray, but I truly hope there is a divine being looking out for the remaining people in the sky.

Please.. just cause one Canadian is an asshole, don't class us all as assholes.. In no manner shape or form would I suggest that this was anything less than a horrible tragedy..
Assholes exist in every country.. please don't insult my Nationality because of what one Canadian spoke..
I would love to read the post.. but it was deleted.. so I read the one that threw a pot shot at my country..
Frankly.. I love Americans.. I have many american friends. My heart goes out to you tonight.
I am not one to pray, but I truly hope there is a divine being looking out for the remaining people in the sky.




Don't misunderstand me, I like Canada, it's not Canada, it's that one big asshole who just happens to live there.

[The Guardian]

I am hoping he deleted it himself because I did not. However it happened, it was not appropriate in this thread and in this time.

[ponygurl]

Please.. just cause one Canadian is an asshole, don't class us all as assholes.. In no manner shape or form would I suggest that this was anything less than a horrible tragedy..
Assholes exist in every country.. please don't insult my Nationality because of what one Canadian spoke..
I would love to read the post.. but it was deleted.. so I read the one that threw a pot shot at my country..
Frankly.. I love Americans.. I have many american friends. My heart goes out to you tonight.
I am not one to pray, but I truly hope there is a divine being looking out for the remaining people in the sky.




Don't misunderstand me, I like Canada, it's not Canada, it's that one big asshole who just happens to live there.


Sigh.. forget it.. I understand the frustration with which Wendy spoke..

[LanceALott]

Yukon: I'm glad the Space Shuttle was destroyed, now you assholes will have something else to cry about.

LaL: Youkon, you should thank god I am not really the head Bolshevik of this world, or you would be number one on my assassination list as an agent provacateur. And I did not even read the post that got deleted.

I am going to make you an offer you can't refuse: Go join Rush Limbaugh, 'cause you ain't no communists.

[ponygurl]

Yukon: I'm glad the Space Shuttle was destroyed, now you assholes will have something else to cry about.

LaL: Youkon, you should thank god I am not really the head Bolshevik of this world, or you would be number one on my assassination list as an agent provacateur. And I did not even read the post that got deleted.

I am going to make you an offer you can't refuse: Go join Rush Limbaugh, 'cause you ain't no communists.


thank you.. my apologies..
This was innappropriate in this thread of greiving...

[ilovelucy]

I am up even early for me and thinking about the tragedy....

There is speculation that the damage to tiles before liftoff and which was thought to be non-threatening at the time, could have been the cause or one possible cause of the loss of the Columbia....

It reminds me of what my flight instructor, a former Navy Cdmr., told me....Accidents often happen when you think you have to fly regardless of the weather, etc....I had a childhood friend killed in a rainstorm flying a private plane to get back for a business meeting in time....

So, I wonder.

Since this was a highly publicised event and multinational, involving the Israeli and Indian media as well, would there have been some reluctance to postpone the flight--especially, given the tense situation in the ME and the liklihood of whatever action is to take place happening rather soon.....?

just thinking out loud as you can see by the runon sentence... :)

[ilovelucy]

Yukon, honey. I hate to say this because it is so unlike me, but go to hell....

[The Guardian]

Lucy: Actually the speculation is that whatever hit the left wing on lift-off may have damaged something in the wrong place.

The next big question..what do you do next? Send up another shuttle if possible? Camp at the space station?

Gethomeitus (what you were talking about re pilots) does tend to kill a lot of pilots.

[I-RIGHT-I]

The best guess to date is that once again a piece of insulation from the booster rockets came loose during lift off and struck the leading edge of the left wing. The NASA engineer that was interviewed said it all in one sentence. "We convinced ourselves that this was not going to be a problem". The theory goes that once the integrity of the tile covers on the wing was breached, on reentry the tile fell away causing a "zipper" effect on the other tiles on the wing and they too came apart like unzipping your pants. The heat would soon destroy the structure of the wing causing it to fall away and the shuttle to disintegrate. It was no doubt very quick. The first indication of trouble was the high temp sensor on the left side tire and shortly after the pilot acknowledged the indicator, in fact in mid sentence, communication was lost.

According to NASA there was no way to inspect the wing in space, let alone repair it. The decision to allow Columbia to re-enter the atmosphere was what killed the crew. The problem began with the insulation falling away from the boosters and this was not the first occurrence. Look for heads to roll over that.

[BrandonL]

There is speculation that the damage to tiles before liftoff and which was thought to be non-threatening at the time, could have been the cause or one possible cause of the loss of the Columbia....

It reminds me of what my flight instructor, a former Navy Cdmr., told me....Accidents often happen when you think you have to fly regardless of the weather, etc....I had a childhood friend killed in a rainstorm flying a private plane to get back for a business meeting in time....

So, I wonder.

Since this was a highly publicised event and multinational, involving the Israeli and Indian media as well, would there have been some reluctance to postpone the flight--especially, given the tense situation in the ME and the liklihood of whatever action is to take place happening rather soon.....?


If the tiles were damaged that bad-they'd have no way to get back to earth. They would not be able to reenter.

They could not go to the ISS, as that required more fuel than they had on board to get into the same orbit.

[ilovelucy]

Would there have been an alternative to allowing them to return when they did--?

Well, we certainly cannot　let the guys at the space station stay up there indefinitely.

There are newer and more reliable shuttles available, are there not?

[BrandonL]

The best guess to date is that once again a piece of insulation from the booster rockets came loose during lift off and struck the leading edge of the left wing. The NASA engineer that was interviewed said it all in one sentence. "We convinced ourselves that this was not going to be a problem". The theory goes that once the integrity of the tile covers on the wing was breached, on reentry the tile fell away causing a "zipper" effect on the other tiles on the wing and they too came apart like unzipping your pants.

One problem with that theory. The tiles were specifically designed NOT to zipper. There are no two tils on the shuttle that are the same. The one's on the leeding edge of the wing are NOT silica tiles-they are reinforced carbon-carbon, and NOT easy to break.

Tiles have fallen off in reentry before, and it has not zippered.

A better theory is one of the hydraulic units in the left elevon malfunctioned and turned the craft over. There's some evidence for it.

[ilovelucy]

So, there is the possibility that what happened was not merely because they gave a green light after the pre-flight incident....

ps Thanks for your knowledge and insights, Brandon...

[BrandonL]

So, there is the possibility that what happened was not merely because they gave a green light after the pre-flight incident....


There are always possibilities. Until we finish the investigation-we won't know for sure. There are so many other things that could have happened. It's not the most controllable vehicle on reentry. A few degrees of pitch here, a few degrees of yaw there, and it would either break apart, skip off the atmosphere, or burn up.

It's wasn't a pre-flight incident, tho (the insulation). That's a during flight incident.

[ilovelucy]

The variance in the angle of the craft when it reenters the atmosphere and the dangers therefrom were mentioned in an statement by an Italian astronaut, I think....

The mathematical calculations required to get this thing just right are rather awesome. I hadn't realized.... :-[

[wendy]

A better theory is one of the hydraulic units in the left elevon malfunctioned and turned the craft over. There's some evidence for it.


That makes quite a bit of sense but it doesn't explain some of the other readings they had prior to loss of contact.

[BrandonL]

That makes quite a bit of sense but it doesn't explain some of the other readings they had prior to loss of contact.

If it was turning slightly during the speed dumping S-turn in the wrong direction, the heat load on the shuttle increases significantly. With that also increases dynamic stresses on the airframe.

Should it have turned too much in the wrong direction-the silica tiles could have transferred heat through to the aluminum airframe. They are only designed to take so much heat without transferring it through the entire depth of the tile.

Or, the elevon could have been a symptom of another problem. The APU that powers it could have exploded (causing high heat readings) and sheared off the wing.

All speculation, of course. I have no more data than the rest of us. NASA will have the best stuff. Have to see at 1 PM what more they have to add.

[LanceALott]

Lucy in the sky with diamonds:
"It reminds me of what my flight instructor, a former Navy Cdmr., told me....Accidents often happen when you think you have to fly regardless of the weather, etc....I had a childhood friend killed in a rainstorm flying a private plane to get back for a business meeting in time....

LaL: Every flyer should read a book written after World War II by a navigator named Gann, "Fate is a Hunter." He said every time a flyer goes up, fate is up there hunting for him, and the more you go up, the better Fates chances to get you.

BTW, it was Gann who FIRST said, "Flying is hour after hour of sheer boardom, punctuated by moments of stark terror."

Shit happens, mechanical things break, and humans screw up. I have personally landed on three different occasions with an engine shut down, once the damn thig blew up just as we approached the point of no return on our way to Vietnam. --

Hey we had four engines on those old C121Gs, and our group commander once flew half-way across the Atlantic with both engines shut down on the same side. But we did joke that those "fans" out there were to keep the crew cool. Just let one of them stop turning, and watch the crew sweat.

I could go on for hours telling old war stories about those moments of stark terror, and I probably will, cause it's kind of hard to shut me up; but for now, let me say Fate did not get me, yet.

[ilovelucy]

Right now, I am relieved to be on the ground diamondless nontheless......

I have a friend who is in his seventies who still flies...He is an old, bold pilot (one of the few :) who used to take people up and deliberately set the plane in a spin to teach them how to get out of one.....an amazing man and funny and cute to boot!

I would like to hear your "war" stories sometime here on the forum...We could all add a few, I am sure...moments of sheer terror which we have been fortunate enough to survive....

bless your service.

[BrandonL]

Well, we know it can't be pinned on the Canadians. The only higher techonogy they possess was bought from other nations. I doubt the have the knowledge required to even find the NASA website.
Actually they designed and built the robotic arm on the shuttle, and the arm on the ISS. They did contribute.

[BrandonL]

If we scrap the Space Program, it will never be reborn. Take a look at congress and tell me those vote-buying parasites would EVER consider ponying up the level of funding it would take to build a new Space Program from the ground up.

Here's a look at the space programs funding from it's inception to 1999. Notice big dips from 1982 to 1988 and from 1992 to 1999.

http://www.richardb.us/nasa.html

looks like Reagan and Clinton didn't put much priority on it. Reagan at least had the excuse of military buildup to combat the Soviets. Clinton had no excuse. Thankfully both the Bushes have seen the value.

[ilovelucy]

And Bush does not have to worry now about military buildup?

[BrandonL]

And Bush does not have to worry now about military buildup?
Not of the same level as Reagan did. We don't need multi-billion dollars spent in ICBM's and large carriers, battleships, etc. The Bush plan is for rapid deployment using cheaper means.

In the 80's our enemy had numerous weapons such as nukes. Now we don't know our enemy. Totally different situation.

[ilovelucy]

Now we don't know where the nukes are really and who actually has what....

[BrandonL]

Now we don't know where the nukes are really and who actually has what....
That's how it's different. Having thousands of ICBMs will help us how, if the nuke is delivered via a suitcase by a nationless terrorist?

[ilovelucy]

But, then again, the space research. development of space systems, satellites, etc. have probably helped us militarily, for that matter...so, I suppose this too is a blessing when facing a war....

[LanceALott]

Lucy: But, then again, the space research. development of space systems, satellites, etc. have probably helped us militarily, for that matter...so, I suppose this too is a blessing when facing a war....

LaL: Is it a blessing, or a cause of the war we face?

Is our frightening superiority of weapons and technology what has scared the crap out of the desert rats and convinced them they must strike first, and strike any way they can hurt us, or become our slaves?

Every weapon system we build increases the paranoia and makes this an even more dangerous world FOR US.

[ilovelucy]

I am not sure how to answer this one.

Chicken or egg, I would think....

I don't think our technology has caused them to have a first strike mentality, if this is what it is really....

I think they see a weakness somewhere, perhaps.

[LanceALott]

Wendy: I think they see a weakness somewhere, perhaps.


LaL: Absolutely they see a weakness, many weaknesses, weaknesses that we are blind to until they show us how to knock down a couple of skyscrapers.

But the stronger we get, the greater their need to hit us and run, to push our fear buttons, deepen our already existing mass paranoia, and get us to react in ways that will do us more harm than good in the long run. Through fear/terror they have learned how to use our own strengths against us.

There is no answer through force.

[ilovelucy]

If you know me at all, then you know that I have grave reservations about war...I am not a total pacifist by any long shot, but I believe in defending my country first....not being a world policeman....

I honestly think something else is coming down here--an agenda which only a priveleged few have a true understanding of.....it is not conspiracy per se, but the nature of elitists with enormous power and money and dreams of control....

[LanceALott]

Lucy: honestly think something else is coming down here--an agenda which only a priveleged few have a true understanding of.....it is not conspiracy per se, but the nature of elitists with enormous power and money and dreams of control....

LaL; I have had those same fears.

I get flashbacks to the Nazi takeover of Germany, where he burned his own building, blamed the Communists, and used the terror (paranoia) to gain total control over Germany with a police state under the color of National Defense; then used the paranoia to try to conquer the whole world, until he forced us to gang up and kill him.

Maybe is was not "them" who flew those planes of 9-11?

And while we are on this line of thinking, we are the only ones who could have knocked that space shuttle down. If we find Saddam's finger prints on a piece of that wreckage, I'm going to Canada.

[ilovelucy]

You brought this up, but in my thinking over the past 24 hours or so (a dangerous thing--I comprehend just enough to be dangerous...), I have thought about the fact that there is probably a way to destroy a rocket or a missle or even a space shuttle, if the powers that be know that that baby is going down and if it lands on the ground, it can cause some serious damage and loss of life, etc......

This is an awful thought...I am sorry I bring it up, but I would like your thoughts...LaL....

[LanceALott]

Lucy: there is probably a way to destroy a rocket or a missle or even a space shuttle,

LaL: Yes, it could be brought down with one of our ABM (Anti Ballistic Missiles), and we are the only ones who have any of those operational, unless Russia has some secret ones; but even the best we have been able to do is knock down the incoming missile one in three times. Even so, the Republicans have approved the money to make that system part of our arsenal, even though the bad system is in violation of a treaty the US signed.

We know the system does not work all that well, but it's the Republican way of kicking back money to the people who put them in power; and it is one of many systems the Republicans have played this game against the taxpayers.

Anyhow, back to the point you raised. Not only could it have been knocked down (1 in 3 chance), but at the very beginning of the break up, I see a puff of smoke (debree) that comes off the vapor trail and goes down and off to the right, behind the space craft, at a very high rate of speed, and I can't imagine any piece coming off in that direction. I am a physicist, and I know about momentum. Any pice of the craft should have continued in roughly the same direction the craft was going; but it is what I imagine a missile going through the craft from the front left would look like.

Shortly after that puff goes the wrong direction the craft disintegrates.

(Edited to add: My front left and right behind is as we see it on the tv, not as they would have seen it from the craft.)

[ilovelucy]

I am postively a layman about this sort of thing, but I would think it possible given the chance that the shuttle could come down and do some serious damage on the ground. Honestly, I would not fault this approach if there was no way to save the astronauts aboard, and I would imagine at that point, if we could ask them, they would agree...

As you can see, I am still deeply shocked and troubled about this...

God bless these guys.

[BrandonL]

Anyhow, back to the point you raised. Not only could it have been knocked down (1 in 3 chance), but at the very beginning of the break up, I see a puff of smoke (debree) that comes off the vapor trail and goes down and off to the right, behind the space craft, at a very high rate of speed, and I can't imagine any piece coming off in that direction. I am a physicist, and I know about momentum. Any pice of the craft should have continued in roughly the same direction the craft was going; but it is what I imagine a missile going through the craft from the front left would look like.

Shortly after that puff goes the wrong direction the craft disintegrates.Where's the trail from the ABM?

What does your study tell you about a spinning or tumbling aircraft. End over end or side to side?

[LanceALott]

Brandon: Where's the trail from the ABM?

LaL: I am assuming an ABM would have spent it's fuel far short of 40 miles up and who knows how many miles traqveling from East to West. So there would be no vapor trail, no sign until after it detonated and the missile itself started to burn.

Brandon: What does your study tell you about a spinning or tumbling aircraft. End over end or side to side?

LaL: No, that does not explain it. The momentum would have carried the debree toward the East, the direction the craft was traveling at mock 25. No amount of spinning or force of detonation would account for the puff going at a hight rate of speed to the West.

In addition to being a phsicist, I am also a Field Artillery Officer, (retired). I know what happens to an artillery air burst. The shell fragments all continue with their forward momentum. The effect of the detonation only causes them to spread out, but they still carry on into the target. They do not take off in the wrong direction at mock something.

[wendy]

LaL: No, that does not explain it. The momentum would have carried the debree toward the East, the direction the craft was traveling at mock 25. No amount of spinning or force of detonation would account for the puff going at a hight rate of speed to the West.

In addition to being a phsicist, I am also a Field Artillery Officer, (retired). I know what happens to an artillery air burst. The shell fragments all continue with their forward momentum. The effect of the detonation only causes them to spread out, but they still carry on into the target. They do not take off in the wrong direction at mock something.


phsicist....

mock 25...

LaL...please, don't insult MY intelligence by trying to pass yourself off as something you are most certainly NOT. ::)

[ilovelucy]

Lal.

My father was field artillery in WWII after graduating with a degree in physics from West Point. He ended his career in Army Intelligence....

My brothers got the genes, I got the shakings of the bag....

just a personal aside...

by the way, wouldn't they have been more like Mach 16 or so when they started reentry?

[BrandonL]

LaL: I am assuming an ABM would have spent it's fuel far short of 40 miles up and who knows how many miles traqveling from East to West. So there would be no vapor trail, no sign until after it detonated and the missile itself started to burn.
No. Hitting a small target such as a shuttle is different than hitting a target such as a ballistic missle. Ballistic missles will travel in a pretty direct path, whereas the orbiter moves in a relatively erratic path depending on heating and speed. Any missle needing to hit this type of target would need to be designed like an air to air missile-burning it's fuel most of the way (thus leaving a distinct trail behind it).

In order for there to be no trail at all in a perfectly clear sky would require a missile being launched from beyond the horizon. It's ability to achieve enough speed to track an erratic shuttle without dumping any speed as it rose would be not very likely.

LaL: No, that does not explain it. The momentum would have carried the debree toward the East, the direction the craft was traveling at mock 25. No amount of spinning or force of detonation would account for the puff going at a hight rate of speed to the West.

In addition to being a phsicist, I am also a Field Artillery Officer, (retired). I know what happens to an artillery air burst. The shell fragments all continue with their forward momentum. The effect of the detonation only causes them to spread out, but they still carry on into the target. They do not take off in the wrong direction at mock something.

I suggest you go watch the videos of plane crashes then. You'll find that when a plane begins to tumble-parts will fly off in all directions (even at speeds of greater than Mach 1). They will still move in the general direction of momentum-as did all parts of the Columbia. Watching any of the video-you can clearly see glowing parts come off in different directions-but stay close to the main glow for quite some time. I don't know what you were watching.

This isn't the result of an ABM. Get real.

[BrandonL]

phsicist....

mock 25...

LaL...please, don't insult MY intelligence by trying to pass yourself off as something you are most certainly NOT. ::)
Thanks for saying that..I was biting my tongue :)

[wendy]

phsicist....

mock 25...

LaL...please, don't insult MY intelligence by trying to pass yourself off as something you are most certainly NOT. ::)
Thanks for saying that..I was biting my tongue :)


There is NO way I was going to let that one pass. ;D

There are people on this board who would believe him. ::)

[ilovelucy]

I guess I was thinking of an internal destruct mechanism built into the shuttle or rocket itself which would not have to be brought down by an external missle. I believe early rockets carried this function....

I could be wrong....This is not my field of expertise.

[BrandonL]

by the way, wouldn't they have been more like Mach 16 or so when they started reentry?
17,500 is the escape velocity of Earth. At the time of the disaster they were traveling at 12,500 mph. Well-the higher you go (and the colder it get's) the slower the speed of sound. At sea level it's 770 mph-at 200,000 feet it's around (estimate) 400 mph. Every division of the SOS results in one Mach number addition.

[BrandonL]

I believe early rockets carried this function....
The SRB's carry them-they were used on the Challenger disaster when they took of out of control. They had to be destroyed. There aren't any in the orbiter though.

But, the real question could be asked-why on reentry? Why not on launch or in orbit (that would be the most shocking).

There are too many reasons why it isn't some sort of terrorist/government plot to make it plausible.

[ilovelucy]

So, it is a bit difficult to pin down the exact Mach unless you pinpoint just the velocity of the craft at the precise moment of re-entry given the temperature at the time....

Mach 12 or 13? 16 at the best?

??

[BrandonL]

For those that want a detailed overview of the Shuttle's thermal designs:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/sts_sys.html#sts-tps

Here's the link to the top of the news reference:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/stsref-toc.html

Good info that'll tell you what all that stuff they are talking about is.

[LanceALott]

Wendy: phsicist....
mock 25...
LaL...please, don't insult MY intelligence by trying to pass yourself off as something you are most certainly NOT

LaL: "Mock 25 is what Fox News said the craft was flying at, I did not calculate it myself, but mock 1 is roughly 650 mph. Brandon even told you is was at least mock 12 and I know it was more than that at 12,500 mph.

As for your stupid insult to try to make yourself look important and someone who can talk down to me, don't try to pass yourself off as someone who can judge me. I really am a physicist, Masters Degree in math and physics, UW 1969; and I have taught physics in high school and college. If I posted my Master's Thesis, "A Particle theory for Gravety" you would not understand it.

[BrandonL]

So, it is a bit difficult to pin down the exact Mach unless you pinpoint just the velocity of the craft at the precise moment of re-entry given the temperature at the time....

Mach 12 or 13? 16 at the best?

??
Yep, you have to calculate air density and temperature to determine the speed of sound at that exact point. The five onboard computers do that calculation. The computer systems on the shuttle are quite amazing (that link above-look for the GPC link-it's a lot of technobabble, but it's quite informative).

[ilovelucy]

UW--

good school. I studied Japanese there in the 70's.

Well, you know, we don't understand these things--so many of us, including Fox news anchormen (okay and women.....)

It may not matter what Mach it was anyway....

[BrandonL]

"A Particle theory for Gravety"Gravety??? ;)

[ilovelucy]

Brandon.

Still, pretty interesting come to think of it...

Such a marvel. I can see why people see space endeavors as a beauty in itself...There is an exquisite order to this....

[BrandonL]

It may not matter what Mach it was anyway....
What matters is the speed and height the shuttle was as the time. Reentry begins at 16,500 mph and 400,000 feet. So, they were pretty far-but, even at that height nothing BUT an ABM could have hit them-and that would have some pretty obvious evidence. Evidence which LAL can't produce.

[wendy]

LaL: "Mock 25 is what Fox News said the craft was flying at, I did not calculate it myself, but mock 1 is roughly 650 mph. Brandon even told you is was at least mock 12 and I know it was more than that at 12,500 mph.

As for your stupid insult to try to make yourself look important and someone who can talk down to me, don't try to pass yourself off as someone who can judge me. I really am a physicist, Masters Degree in math and physics, UW 1969; and I have taught physics in high school and college. If I posted my Master's Thesis, "A Particle theory for Gravety" you would not understand it.


LAL..if you were a Physicist, you wouldn't have even posted your "mock 25" mistake. Mach 25 would be the approximate speed for the Columbia when it began its entry interface at about 400,000 feet.

[BrandonL]

Such a marvel. I can see why people see space endeavors as a beauty in itself...There is an exquisite order to this....
Yep. Even for a 30+ year old design-it's very advanced. A definite tribute to our design skill and creativity.

[ilovelucy]

I had not even speculated that it was shot down at all...That seems to be highly improbable. Did Lancealot say that it was????

I merely speculated that if the controllers felt the potential damage on the ground would be great enough, would they or could they internally destroy the craft.

Brandon, you say this type of thing is not on board these craft now...I can buy that...But, I am a speculative type, unfortunately....

[BrandonL]

LAL..if you were a Physicist, you wouldn't have even posted your "mock 25" mistake. Mach 25 would be the approximate speed for the Columbia when it began its entry interface at about 400,000 feet.

Let alone try to "mock" us with the "mock" comment.

Usually when you do hear them refer to Mach speeds-it's using the sea level speed as a reference-not the variable of the plane in the air.

[LanceALott]

Brandon: No. Hitting a small target such as a shuttle is different than hitting a target such as a ballistic missle.

LaL: Get real, the target of an ABM is not a ballistic missile, it's a warhead tht seperated from the missile before re-entry, and a warhead is a heck of a lot smaller target than a space shuttle. Besides, I said our best chance is only 1 in three with an ABM. But no MAATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT, IT IS A LONGSHOT. I concede that.



Brandon: I suggest you go watch the videos of plane crashes then.

LaL: We are not talking about a plane crash here. We are talking of a space craft traveling about five times the spead of our best airplane. -- I suggest you look at the effect of field artillery with an airbust. It is more appropriate.

Brandon: This isn't the result of an ABM. Get real.

LaL: Your above statement may be right, probably is; but I want anexception, because it is within the realm of possiblility.

BTW, okay so I can't spell gravety (gravity) but I said my degree was in math and physics, not typing for Christ sake. Cut me some slack.

[ilovelucy]

I wonder now...Even if we know the cause of the break-up and I am strongly thinking it was a natural event at this point, what do we do with the knowledge?

[LanceALott]

Are you trying to "mock" me because I can't spell?

[wendy]

I wonder now...Even if we know the cause of the break-up and I am strongly thinking it was a natural event at this point, what do we do with the knowledge?




Nothing...unless it's a design error.

[BrandonL]

I had not even speculated that it was shot down at all...That seems to be highly improbable. Did Lancealot say that it was????He's trying to make the case for it.

I merely speculated that if the controllers felt the potential damage on the ground would be great enough, would they or could they internally destroy the craft. It's possible, but unlikely. If they were going to do something like that-they would have done it higher up to reduce the risk even further. The decision to destroy it probably could not have been made that fast, since they were right about to lose the signal with the craft in a few seconds anyways (due to ionization).

They brought down Glenn with a detached heat shield, Apollo 13 with it's problems, previous shuttle missions with a whole host of issues-it's doubtful that they just made the decision to throw away a several billion dollar spacecraft and seven crewmembers this time around.

[BrandonL]

LaL: Get real, the target of an ABM is not a ballistic missile, it's a warhead tht seperated from the missile before re-entry, and a warhead is a heck of a lot smaller target than a space shuttle.
An erratic target is much harder to hit than one on a direct path. The orbiter was not on a direct path.

LaL: We are not talking about a plane crash here. We are talking of a space craft traveling about five times the spead of our best airplane. -- I suggest you look at the effect of field artillery with an airbust. It is more appropriate.
What's faster-artillery or an SR-71? An SR-71 breaking apart is much closer to this than some exploding artillery.

BTW, okay so I can't spell gravety (gravity) but I said my degree was in math and physics, not typing for Christ sake. Cut me some slack.
I know people with degrees in physics-and they don't misspell words like gravity and Mach.

[LanceALott]

Brandon: What's faster-artillery or an SR-71? An SR-71 breaking apart is much closer to this than some exploding artillery.

LaL: What is the top speed of an SR-71? I bet you know it is not even close to 12,500 mph, no matter what mach (mock) it is.

So you cannot defeat my argument, so you try to discredit me personally? Interesting. I know a couple of math/physiscist named Einstien and Newton that could not count their change. What the fuck does spelling have to do with what we are discussing?

And why do you and Wendy make is such a personal and hostile thing? Perhapss because you have already committed yourself to a theory that might be wrong? If not, What the hell is the source of your fear? I don't think this shit is about you or me, it's about what COULD HAVE happened to that craft. So can we try to keep this discussion on the subject?

[wendy]

And why do you and Wendy make is such a personal and hostile thing? Perhapss because you have already committed yourself to a theory that might be wrong? If not, What the hell is the source of your fear? I don't think this shit is about you or me, it's about what COULD HAVE happened to that craft. So can we try to keep this discussion on the subject?




Sweetie-pie....the only person on this thread exhibiting hostility is yourself.

Wonder why. :)

[ilovelucy]

yes, I want to ponder what could have and then what actually happened would be a relief....

[Bassman]

Are you trying to "mock" me because I can't spell?

No.That's MY job.
A "phiscist" not knowing somthing as incredibly basic as "Mach" is akin to me saying there's five sharps in the key of C Major while claiming to be a musician.

[BrandonL]

LaL: What is the top speed of an SR-71? I bet you know it is not even close to 12,500 mph, no matter what mach (mock) it is.it's classified-but roughly 3,000 mph. The X-15 is the second fastest winged vehicle at 4,535 mph. None of those broke apart (except on landing). Either way-any vehicle breaking apart at that speed would not just slowly break aprt like a block of cheese.

So you cannot defeat my argument, so you try to discredit me personally? Interesting. I know a couple of math/physiscist named Einstien and Newton that could not count their change. What the fuck does spelling have to do with what we are discussing?
THat's a simple one. YOU brought up your "Master's thesis". Well-I sure hope your professor docked you for every spelling mistake. Engineers and physicists do NOT make stupid mistakes like that. it could be the difference between living and dying for some people.

[LanceALott]

Brandon: What's faster-artillery or an SR-71? An SR-71 breaking apart is much closer to this than some exploding artillery.

LaL: No, breaking apart, spinning and twisting, could not possibly produce the force to propell that puff westward. We are talking of a force so darn big it would counter the 12,500 mph momentum, and propell it as some speed faster than the speed of sound in the wrong direction; and that has nothing to do with whether I can spell sh*t. Even a detonation, like an artillery round, could not produce it.

[BrandonL]

LaL: No, breaking apart, spinning and twisting, could not possibly produce the force to propell that puff westward. We are talking of a force so darn big it would counter the 12,500 mph momentum, and propell it as some speed faster than the speed of sound in the wrong direction; and that has nothing to do with whether I can spell sh*t. Even a detonation, like an artillery round, could not produce it.

You didn't say you were an aeronautical engineer as well. Care to tell us the aerodynamic formulas you used to come to your decision?

[LanceALott]

Brandon: THat's a simple one. YOU brought up your "Master's thesis". Well-I sure hope your professor docked you for every spelling mistake. Engineers and physicists do NOT make stupid mistakes like that. it could be the difference between living and dying for some people.

LaL: I brought it up, typed gravety in a hury, and posted; and I bet you know that. I am not typing a thesis, nor a report, nor do I run it through my spell checker, or hire a professional editor. A scientist looks for science, truth, reality, ideas, not for bull shit like typing. Are you a scientist or a beuracrat who looks for form over substance?

I saw something on that puff, I know what I am talking about, and you cannot bury it with spelling.

[Bassman]

LaL: No, breaking apart, spinning and twisting, could not possibly produce the force to propell that puff westward. We are talking of a force so darn big it would counter the 12,500 mph momentum, and propell it as some speed faster than the speed of sound in the wrong direction; and that has nothing to do with whether I can spell sh*t. Even a detonation, like an artillery round, could not produce it.

You didn't say you were an aeronautical engineer as well. Care to tell us the aerodynamic formulas you used to come to your decision?

Don't hold your breath,Brandon.Bet it takes a while to find that stuff on the web.
Thanks,BTW.You've given me some insight on this whole thing.

[LanceALott]

Brandon: You didn't say you were an aeronautical engineer as well. Care to tell us the aerodynamic formulas you used to come to your decision?

LaL: I am not an engineer of any kind, so you tell us the formulas you use to produce that kind of absurd force which would be many times greater than the force of detonating C-4 explosive.

[BrandonL]

LaL: I am not an engineer of any kind, so you tell us the formulas you use to produce that kind of absurd force which would be many times greater than the force of detonating C-4 explosive.

You do the calculations of exactly what part you saw fly off-and factor in the combination of (possibly) several hundred pounds of MMH & N2O4 -as well as several hundred pounds of LOX and LH2 (from the fuel cells and APUs).

C4 explosives are nothing compared to my farts after a night of drinking beer and eating pickled-eggs !

[BrandonL]

Thanks,BTW.You've given me some insight on this whole thing.
No prob. I'm no phicist 8) though-but I do have a huge interest in aerospace.

I actually get the Shuttle news paks mailed to me each year (they have a ton of info)-goes back to my days in HS when I worked with a Martin-Marietta engineer on a science fair project. He gets me VIP passes to KSC still. Those guys (the one's who worked on the actual parts of the shuttle) are a WEALTH of info. They can talk to you for hours and hours and hours - even about something as insignificant as a turbopump! :)

[LanceALott]

Are you some kind of propagadist, or a sicentist/engineer? Are you on some kind of mission, or are you sincerely looking for ideas? What is this crap?:

Brandon: You do the calculations of exactly what part you saw fly off-and factor in the combination of (possibly) several hundred pounds of MMH & N2O4 -as well as several hundred pounds of LOX and LH2 (from the fuel cells and APUs).

LaL: You know I don't have the video, or the capability of doing those calculations, so what do you hope to accomplish with this crap? But I do have one thing, and that is knoweldge of forces, speeds, momentum and and scientific intuition that tells me no explosion could have propelled that one little puff in the wrong direction, WITHOUT BLOWING THE WHOLE CRAFT UP IN THE SAME DAMN EXPLOSION.

But there was not even a hint of any other damage for several seconds after the puff went through the craft. I did not even see any explosion when the puff came out. More like a spear went through the craft, damaging it; and then it broke apart. When it broke apart, the pieces of the craft itself all do continue in the direction of the momentum, just like they should.

And the harder you argue over stupid and impossible things, the more I wonder why? And you try to discredit me with a typo? What the heck is going on here? Are you just defending a bruised ego, or are you being paid to run some kind of interference?

[BrandonL]

It's simple LAL-all the information they are releasing in the press conference right now indicates the opposite of what you are speculating.

[LanceALott]

What channel is the press conference on?

And since when are press conferences not propaganda?

[BrandonL]

What channel is the press conference on?

And since when are press conferences not propaganda?

Oh dear lord...any of your 24 hour news channels. CNN/FOX/MSNBC, etc...

[wendy]

The Nasa channel...

[LanceALott]

I missed the technical part. Now discussing the families.

You did not answer my question, about press conferences and propaganda.

[BrandonL]

You did not answer my question, about press conferences and propaganda.

The telemetry is telling them that something caused more drag on the left side, and the controls tried to steer the shuttle to the right.

I don't even know if your question is that serious or not. What do you REALLLLLLLY believe knocked the orbiter down. Lay it out for all to see. My mind is still open. If it was damage at liftoff to the tile-so be it. If it was a computer glitch so be it. If it was an internal explosion-so be it.

[LanceALott]

Brandon: The telemetry is telling them that something caused more drag on the left side, and the controls tried to steer the shuttle to the right.

LaL: I think that would be consistent with a missile penetrating the craft from the right front of the craft and exiting the left rear and continuing in the puff of smoke going very rapidly to the west. Like a bullet penetrating a tin can, the entry hole would be a tiny disturbance on the right side; but where it exists, after mushrooming, it tears a much biger hole. In addition that hole would bend parts of the craft inward on the right side, away from the air stream, and outward on the left side, into the air stream, CAUSING MUCH GREATER DRAG ON THE LEFT SIDE.

Brandon: I